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	Comments on: Palácio da Alvorada, Brazil&#039;s Palace of the Dawn &#8211; and its garden design	</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2011 06:44:49 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3883</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2011 06:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7117#comment-3883</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sorry, I have no confidence in Futurology.  Instead, the managers of urban public open space should concentrate on RESPONSIVENESS. They should observe what people do and they should ask people what they would like to do. Then they should respons accordingly.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I have no confidence in Futurology.  Instead, the managers of urban public open space should concentrate on RESPONSIVENESS. They should observe what people do and they should ask people what they would like to do. Then they should respons accordingly.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3882</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2011 02:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7117#comment-3882</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thankyou. I found this explanation by Arnold Rikli&#039;s of the start of his therapies:

&quot;Some thirty six years ago, all remedies from the apothecary&#039;s shop failing, I was dying with dysentery, when my life was saved through an advice I found in Dr Munde&#039;s &#039;hydrotherapie&#039;. From inclination as well as from gratitude, I resolved upon devoting hence forth my energies to the study and practice of a method that has done so much good to myself and so many others, and which promised to strengthen and harden my naturally weak constitution. With Dr Munde&#039;s excellent practical guide in hand, I gradually tried upon my own body all the different applications of the Watercure, and then commenced to practice upon others as opportunities offered. I soon discovered that the use of cold alone did not answer in every case, and that, with the aged, the feeble and the chlorotic, the alternative use of heat did more service than that of cold water exclusively. Thus, adding the sunbath, the bed steam-bath, the air bath, and similar other applications to Priessnitz&#039;s system, I gradually formed that combined system of Physico-Hydriatic Treatment, which has been practiced for the last twenty seven years, under the favourable influence of a mild sunny climate, the pure mountain air, and with the assistance of several powerful springs of the cleanest and coldest water, on the beautiful little lakes of Veldes, the &#039;Pearl of the Julian Alps&#039;.&quot;

So Parliament Square is currently used by the public for (amongst other activities) political protest, as a thoroughfare, natural therapies, health tourism and photography!

Urban planners definitely have a difficult task in predicting the future. Do you think including a course in Futurology in their studies would assist with better designs?
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurology ]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thankyou. I found this explanation by Arnold Rikli&#8217;s of the start of his therapies:</p>
<p>&#8220;Some thirty six years ago, all remedies from the apothecary&#8217;s shop failing, I was dying with dysentery, when my life was saved through an advice I found in Dr Munde&#8217;s &#8216;hydrotherapie&#8217;. From inclination as well as from gratitude, I resolved upon devoting hence forth my energies to the study and practice of a method that has done so much good to myself and so many others, and which promised to strengthen and harden my naturally weak constitution. With Dr Munde&#8217;s excellent practical guide in hand, I gradually tried upon my own body all the different applications of the Watercure, and then commenced to practice upon others as opportunities offered. I soon discovered that the use of cold alone did not answer in every case, and that, with the aged, the feeble and the chlorotic, the alternative use of heat did more service than that of cold water exclusively. Thus, adding the sunbath, the bed steam-bath, the air bath, and similar other applications to Priessnitz&#8217;s system, I gradually formed that combined system of Physico-Hydriatic Treatment, which has been practiced for the last twenty seven years, under the favourable influence of a mild sunny climate, the pure mountain air, and with the assistance of several powerful springs of the cleanest and coldest water, on the beautiful little lakes of Veldes, the &#8216;Pearl of the Julian Alps&#8217;.&#8221;</p>
<p>So Parliament Square is currently used by the public for (amongst other activities) political protest, as a thoroughfare, natural therapies, health tourism and photography!</p>
<p>Urban planners definitely have a difficult task in predicting the future. Do you think including a course in Futurology in their studies would assist with better designs?<br />
[ <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurology" rel="nofollow ugc">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurology</a> ]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3881</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2011 19:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7117#comment-3881</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3880&quot;&gt;Christine&lt;/a&gt;.

I suppose one could make a distinction in that change is something which generally happens to the work of  architects but which has to be considered from the outset in the work of landscape archtiects and garden designers. Urban designers have to plan for change but the changes they envisage are generally the fulfillment of their &#039;master plans&#039; [a term I liked when I first heard it but which I now dislike].
I think the ideas of an air bath and a sun bath came to England from Germany - probably in the 1920s (they originated in the late nineteenth century ideas of the Swiss-German Arnold Rikli).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3880">Christine</a>.</p>
<p>I suppose one could make a distinction in that change is something which generally happens to the work of  architects but which has to be considered from the outset in the work of landscape archtiects and garden designers. Urban designers have to plan for change but the changes they envisage are generally the fulfillment of their &#8216;master plans&#8217; [a term I liked when I first heard it but which I now dislike].<br />
I think the ideas of an air bath and a sun bath came to England from Germany &#8211; probably in the 1920s (they originated in the late nineteenth century ideas of the Swiss-German Arnold Rikli).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3880</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2011 05:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7117#comment-3880</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Landscape and garden design is unique in the sense that plants need time to grow and it is not always affordable to transplant them fully grown. So there is a time aspect inherent in this sense of the mature garden. There is also a seasonality in a garden.

These aspects are mirrored in architecture to a lesser extent in the notions of 1) setting, 2) location, 3) orientation, 4) passive design and 5) climate sensitivity.

Time aspects are perhaps more important in urban design where outdoor comfort and the way the exterior relationships of buildings and spaces relate to each other and how people use and move through space has a greater focus.

The historical aspect is more evident in an experiential sense. [ See Parliament Square and consider how differently it would have been experienced in each era, ie. contemporary uses allow relaxing and sunbaking whereas it is unlikely historical uses would have. An interesting question would be the transition point. When did sunbaking in London Squares first become popular?]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Landscape and garden design is unique in the sense that plants need time to grow and it is not always affordable to transplant them fully grown. So there is a time aspect inherent in this sense of the mature garden. There is also a seasonality in a garden.</p>
<p>These aspects are mirrored in architecture to a lesser extent in the notions of 1) setting, 2) location, 3) orientation, 4) passive design and 5) climate sensitivity.</p>
<p>Time aspects are perhaps more important in urban design where outdoor comfort and the way the exterior relationships of buildings and spaces relate to each other and how people use and move through space has a greater focus.</p>
<p>The historical aspect is more evident in an experiential sense. [ See Parliament Square and consider how differently it would have been experienced in each era, ie. contemporary uses allow relaxing and sunbaking whereas it is unlikely historical uses would have. An interesting question would be the transition point. When did sunbaking in London Squares first become popular?]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3879</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 06:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7117#comment-3879</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3878&quot;&gt;Christine&lt;/a&gt;.

I have often heard landscape architects remark that a concern with time is a central aspect of their discipline. But I have not often noticed that a concern with time is central feature of landscape designs as shown on plans! As an amateur historian I am fascinated by the way gardens have changed in time but so, of course, have buildings.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3878">Christine</a>.</p>
<p>I have often heard landscape architects remark that a concern with time is a central aspect of their discipline. But I have not often noticed that a concern with time is central feature of landscape designs as shown on plans! As an amateur historian I am fascinated by the way gardens have changed in time but so, of course, have buildings.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3878</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 03:24:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7117#comment-3878</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes. There are many possible concerns possible within the discipline of architecture, for example some architects are more concerned with structure and form. Texture and surface (skin) are some other possibilities.

However, I was pleased to read about Walter Burley Griffin&#039;s ideas on space in architecture because this is also my fascination. Tschumi, like Giedion has a concern with space and time. A closer reading of Giedion and Tschumi would be necessary to understand whether their concerns with time are similar to my own.

When I consider time it is not central to architectural design in the way that space is, but rather impacts on the reception of architecture in time, through time and as heritage.

Time, however, is critical to the project of architecture (and landscape and planning) in the sense of the Zeitgeist.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. There are many possible concerns possible within the discipline of architecture, for example some architects are more concerned with structure and form. Texture and surface (skin) are some other possibilities.</p>
<p>However, I was pleased to read about Walter Burley Griffin&#8217;s ideas on space in architecture because this is also my fascination. Tschumi, like Giedion has a concern with space and time. A closer reading of Giedion and Tschumi would be necessary to understand whether their concerns with time are similar to my own.</p>
<p>When I consider time it is not central to architectural design in the way that space is, but rather impacts on the reception of architecture in time, through time and as heritage.</p>
<p>Time, however, is critical to the project of architecture (and landscape and planning) in the sense of the Zeitgeist.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3877</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7117#comment-3877</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3876&quot;&gt;Christine&lt;/a&gt;.

Not sure about rhythm.  I have heard it said that music is about space. I agree that landscape architecture and planning are about space. But architecture? I know that Sigfried Giedion wrote a book on &lt;em&gt;Space, time and architecture&lt;/em&gt;, but I think many architects (especially before the modern era) have been more concerned with solids than voids (with mass than space).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3876">Christine</a>.</p>
<p>Not sure about rhythm.  I have heard it said that music is about space. I agree that landscape architecture and planning are about space. But architecture? I know that Sigfried Giedion wrote a book on <em>Space, time and architecture</em>, but I think many architects (especially before the modern era) have been more concerned with solids than voids (with mass than space).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3876</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 01:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7117#comment-3876</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The simile Walter Burley Griffin made was that rhythm was to music what space is to landscape architecture, architecture and planning.

Not so sure there are very many other eras in landscape and garden design, as the Jazz Age in America, so influenced by music?

For example Charles Jencks Garden of Cosmic Speculation was influenced rather by philosophy, science and mathematics (and the borrowed landscape of Chinese gardens)!
[ http://www.recreatingeden.com/index.php?pid=8&#038;season=03&#038;episode=28 ]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The simile Walter Burley Griffin made was that rhythm was to music what space is to landscape architecture, architecture and planning.</p>
<p>Not so sure there are very many other eras in landscape and garden design, as the Jazz Age in America, so influenced by music?</p>
<p>For example Charles Jencks Garden of Cosmic Speculation was influenced rather by philosophy, science and mathematics (and the borrowed landscape of Chinese gardens)!<br />
[ <a href="http://www.recreatingeden.com/index.php?pid=8&#038;season=03&#038;episode=28" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.recreatingeden.com/index.php?pid=8&#038;season=03&#038;episode=28</a> ]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jerry		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3875</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2011 07:06:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7117#comment-3875</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[TOM, Please do not be over-modesty! I guess that Yuan would like you to start learning music and Chinese from now on. If you put some links of music in your English garden history book, I believe it will become more interesting!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TOM, Please do not be over-modesty! I guess that Yuan would like you to start learning music and Chinese from now on. If you put some links of music in your English garden history book, I believe it will become more interesting!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/palacio-da-alvorada-brazils-palace-of-the-dawn/#comment-3874</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2011 04:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7117#comment-3874</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Because America was so influenced by the garden styles of the UK it is interesting to see if it is possible to pinpoint within history when America started to evolve its own aesthetic and its own distinct sense of being &#039;American&#039;.

The Lands End b&#038;w photograph shows a formal American house and garden in the foreground, which is definitely replicating the traditional UK house and garden in style. The Gatsby House, however, is quite different and distinct. It faces out towards the beach and the ocean with the pool and dance floor being the pivotal features of the garden.

1920s American culture is experiencing something of a revival in the UK in the early twentyfirst century, see [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKTBLBFWO3Q ] and [ http://www.soglos.com/music/28300/The-Jazz-Age-Garden-Party-in-the-Cotswolds ]. Given this phenomenon, it is interesting to consider the different garden settings mentioned above and the ambience of the Jazz Age Party held on Governor&#039;s Island.
[ http://www.flickr.com/photos/nofunnyname/3633778896/in/photostream/ ]

Cornell has a map of Great Neck, Long Island in 1927 to provide a little context.
[ http://reading.cornell.edu/reading_project_06/gatsby/mp1.htm ] As does this article on Scott Fitzgerald. [ http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/13/style/13iht-fitz.html ]

Yuan, my only knowledge of Chinese music is that it is very complex. Tom, Walter Burley Griffin considered Landscape Architecture (and Architecture) to be spatial arts with the attributes of frozen music. Music he said, was a time art.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because America was so influenced by the garden styles of the UK it is interesting to see if it is possible to pinpoint within history when America started to evolve its own aesthetic and its own distinct sense of being &#8216;American&#8217;.</p>
<p>The Lands End b&amp;w photograph shows a formal American house and garden in the foreground, which is definitely replicating the traditional UK house and garden in style. The Gatsby House, however, is quite different and distinct. It faces out towards the beach and the ocean with the pool and dance floor being the pivotal features of the garden.</p>
<p>1920s American culture is experiencing something of a revival in the UK in the early twentyfirst century, see [ <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKTBLBFWO3Q" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKTBLBFWO3Q</a> ] and [ <a href="http://www.soglos.com/music/28300/The-Jazz-Age-Garden-Party-in-the-Cotswolds" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.soglos.com/music/28300/The-Jazz-Age-Garden-Party-in-the-Cotswolds</a> ]. Given this phenomenon, it is interesting to consider the different garden settings mentioned above and the ambience of the Jazz Age Party held on Governor&#8217;s Island.<br />
[ <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/nofunnyname/3633778896/in/photostream/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.flickr.com/photos/nofunnyname/3633778896/in/photostream/</a> ]</p>
<p>Cornell has a map of Great Neck, Long Island in 1927 to provide a little context.<br />
[ <a href="http://reading.cornell.edu/reading_project_06/gatsby/mp1.htm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://reading.cornell.edu/reading_project_06/gatsby/mp1.htm</a> ] As does this article on Scott Fitzgerald. [ <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/13/style/13iht-fitz.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/13/style/13iht-fitz.html</a> ]</p>
<p>Yuan, my only knowledge of Chinese music is that it is very complex. Tom, Walter Burley Griffin considered Landscape Architecture (and Architecture) to be spatial arts with the attributes of frozen music. Music he said, was a time art.</p>
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