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	Comments on: London recreational looting in August 2011	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4076</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Aug 2011 02:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7334#comment-4076</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The inherent difficulty with the property and stock market is speculation.
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculation ]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The inherent difficulty with the property and stock market is speculation.<br />
[ <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculation" rel="nofollow ugc">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculation</a> ]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4075</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Aug 2011 06:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7334#comment-4075</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4074&quot;&gt;Christine&lt;/a&gt;.

Banking, insurance, financial services and professional services are good businesses to be in - providing the jobs are well managed. This requires good ethical standards, good regulation, good education, freedom from monopolies and, if things go seriously wrong,  a good prospect of the businesses going bust and the managers losing their money and/or going to jail. When the UK banks went bust it emerged that none of the CEOs were trained bankers. I do not think there was much criminality behind the late-2000s financial crisis but all the other problems were present in the UK: low ethical standards from bankers, too many banks were &#039;too big to fail&#039;, too few bankers lost money and many of them made fortunes from government bail-outs.  I have been trying to extend the old bankers&#039; adage that &lt;em&gt;&#039;in good times we do well and in bad times we do better&#039;&lt;/em&gt;. Maybe it is OK as it stands or should we add that &#039;&lt;em&gt;and in terrible times we milk taxpayers&lt;/em&gt;&#039;?

I would like to know more about the balance which the world&#039;s largest company (Apple) runs with East Asia. Most Apple products are manufactured in Asia but (1) the manufacturer only makes a small margin on each item (2) Apple makes a a fabulous margin on each item eg 60% on the iPhone (3) Apple makes a great deal of money by selling products in Asian markets. So who is doing best from the deals? It must be Apple. So the west needs more orchards - and there should be a lot work for good gardeners!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4074">Christine</a>.</p>
<p>Banking, insurance, financial services and professional services are good businesses to be in &#8211; providing the jobs are well managed. This requires good ethical standards, good regulation, good education, freedom from monopolies and, if things go seriously wrong,  a good prospect of the businesses going bust and the managers losing their money and/or going to jail. When the UK banks went bust it emerged that none of the CEOs were trained bankers. I do not think there was much criminality behind the late-2000s financial crisis but all the other problems were present in the UK: low ethical standards from bankers, too many banks were &#8216;too big to fail&#8217;, too few bankers lost money and many of them made fortunes from government bail-outs.  I have been trying to extend the old bankers&#8217; adage that <em>&#8216;in good times we do well and in bad times we do better&#8217;</em>. Maybe it is OK as it stands or should we add that &#8216;<em>and in terrible times we milk taxpayers</em>&#8216;?</p>
<p>I would like to know more about the balance which the world&#8217;s largest company (Apple) runs with East Asia. Most Apple products are manufactured in Asia but (1) the manufacturer only makes a small margin on each item (2) Apple makes a a fabulous margin on each item eg 60% on the iPhone (3) Apple makes a great deal of money by selling products in Asian markets. So who is doing best from the deals? It must be Apple. So the west needs more orchards &#8211; and there should be a lot work for good gardeners!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4074</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Aug 2011 05:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7334#comment-4074</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I was in London during the Gordon Gekko years (the Nigel Lawson stockmarket boom)before the bust that followed in the early 1990s.
[ http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/property/bust-will-follow-boom---but-when ]

It seems that the fundamentals of the economy become out of balance, and in this instance the Financial Crisis is global property bust rather than local bust! The stockmarket crisis has followed on the banking crisis.

What is needed of course is a solution to the global economic crisis in the developed world that is productivity based (as it is in the developing world and Germany - ie engineering), rather than resource based (ie in Australia) or service sector based (ie in the UK).

Given that the developed world has largely outsourced its production to the developing world and is then spending to import the products from the developed world the source of the credit imbalance is easy to locate.

So what sort of production should the developed world now target to underpin economic growth?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was in London during the Gordon Gekko years (the Nigel Lawson stockmarket boom)before the bust that followed in the early 1990s.<br />
[ <a href="http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/property/bust-will-follow-boom---but-when" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/property/bust-will-follow-boom&#8212;but-when</a> ]</p>
<p>It seems that the fundamentals of the economy become out of balance, and in this instance the Financial Crisis is global property bust rather than local bust! The stockmarket crisis has followed on the banking crisis.</p>
<p>What is needed of course is a solution to the global economic crisis in the developed world that is productivity based (as it is in the developing world and Germany &#8211; ie engineering), rather than resource based (ie in Australia) or service sector based (ie in the UK).</p>
<p>Given that the developed world has largely outsourced its production to the developing world and is then spending to import the products from the developed world the source of the credit imbalance is easy to locate.</p>
<p>So what sort of production should the developed world now target to underpin economic growth?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4073</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Aug 2011 17:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7334#comment-4073</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Here is a comment on the riots from Tim Price (a former bond trader): &quot;Extraordinary scenes here in the UK, with a parasitical underclass robbing, torching and looting businesses. But enough of the bankers - why did a segment of Britain&#039;s &#039;lost&#039; urban generation suddenly turn feral ? The comparison between out of control financiers and disaffected violent youths is not merely a tired snipe against our unreconstructed banking class. There are wider social tensions busily simmering away. Perhaps some of the rioters who took to the streets of London, Birmingham and Manchester last week have started to twig that they face a lifetime of higher taxes (if they can get jobs at all) and diminished social services courtesy of decades of swelling &quot;entitlement&quot;, the accumulated benefits of the baby-boomers that preceded them, and the damage wrought by self-interested financiers playing at casino capitalism of no social merit whatsoever. Not so much Generation X as Generation Ex: ex-jobs, ex-growth, ex-prospects. We have had politicians pocketing illicit expenses, and bankers trousering unjustifiable bonuses even as the financial system totters at the cliff edge. Is trashing Miss Selfridge really so different?&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a comment on the riots from Tim Price (a former bond trader): &#8220;Extraordinary scenes here in the UK, with a parasitical underclass robbing, torching and looting businesses. But enough of the bankers &#8211; why did a segment of Britain&#8217;s &#8216;lost&#8217; urban generation suddenly turn feral ? The comparison between out of control financiers and disaffected violent youths is not merely a tired snipe against our unreconstructed banking class. There are wider social tensions busily simmering away. Perhaps some of the rioters who took to the streets of London, Birmingham and Manchester last week have started to twig that they face a lifetime of higher taxes (if they can get jobs at all) and diminished social services courtesy of decades of swelling &#8220;entitlement&#8221;, the accumulated benefits of the baby-boomers that preceded them, and the damage wrought by self-interested financiers playing at casino capitalism of no social merit whatsoever. Not so much Generation X as Generation Ex: ex-jobs, ex-growth, ex-prospects. We have had politicians pocketing illicit expenses, and bankers trousering unjustifiable bonuses even as the financial system totters at the cliff edge. Is trashing Miss Selfridge really so different?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4072</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Aug 2011 05:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7334#comment-4072</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It is always difficult when class and culture are confused. Immigrants join the class system of the country they migrate to.

All cultures have a social system. So inherently if there is a valid distinction between vocational and academically oriented students then these distinctions ought to be uniform across cultures or exhibit culture specific patterns.

So the answer is generally no. Excepting the response to policing strategies which are said to be heavy handed in both communities (and perhaps resulting in alienation of young people from law enforcement officers). And also a lack of police accountability when deaths occur.
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_deaths_in_custody ]

High incarceration rates are most probably the symptom of a socio-cultural problem rather than a reflection of a greater cultural propensity to criminality.

It is difficult when a society allows incarceration to become the norm within communities so that internally it is not stigmatised as a phenomenon.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is always difficult when class and culture are confused. Immigrants join the class system of the country they migrate to.</p>
<p>All cultures have a social system. So inherently if there is a valid distinction between vocational and academically oriented students then these distinctions ought to be uniform across cultures or exhibit culture specific patterns.</p>
<p>So the answer is generally no. Excepting the response to policing strategies which are said to be heavy handed in both communities (and perhaps resulting in alienation of young people from law enforcement officers). And also a lack of police accountability when deaths occur.<br />
[ <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_deaths_in_custody" rel="nofollow ugc">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_deaths_in_custody</a> ]</p>
<p>High incarceration rates are most probably the symptom of a socio-cultural problem rather than a reflection of a greater cultural propensity to criminality.</p>
<p>It is difficult when a society allows incarceration to become the norm within communities so that internally it is not stigmatised as a phenomenon.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4071</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Aug 2011 04:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7334#comment-4071</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The BBC had an interview this morning with the mother of a girl who started getting into trouble in her early teens. Smoking led to shoplifting and then to drugs and prison. A carefully managed prison sentence with education and periods at home eventually sorted her out. The interviewer then asked the Mum why she thought things had gone so wrong and the Mum, who is a teacher, replied &#039;I don&#039;t know, but the thing she always said was &quot;Mum, I&#039;m not academic like you&quot;&#039;. This story supports my prejudice that the school system is too academic. It provides for people who will go into the professions and it offers little on nothing in the way of useful skills, mental engagement or prospects of any kind for those who are heading for &#039;other walks of life&#039;. So boredom and despair set in and the devil then makes work for idle hands, in his customary manner.
Do you think there is any comparability between the problems of the &#039;underclass&#039; in Britain and the problems of indiginous Australians?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The BBC had an interview this morning with the mother of a girl who started getting into trouble in her early teens. Smoking led to shoplifting and then to drugs and prison. A carefully managed prison sentence with education and periods at home eventually sorted her out. The interviewer then asked the Mum why she thought things had gone so wrong and the Mum, who is a teacher, replied &#8216;I don&#8217;t know, but the thing she always said was &#8220;Mum, I&#8217;m not academic like you&#8221;&#8216;. This story supports my prejudice that the school system is too academic. It provides for people who will go into the professions and it offers little on nothing in the way of useful skills, mental engagement or prospects of any kind for those who are heading for &#8216;other walks of life&#8217;. So boredom and despair set in and the devil then makes work for idle hands, in his customary manner.<br />
Do you think there is any comparability between the problems of the &#8216;underclass&#8217; in Britain and the problems of indiginous Australians?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4070</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Aug 2011 03:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7334#comment-4070</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It is interesting that Nigerians refer to the failure of African leaders in their home countries as an explanation for Nigerian nationalist involvement.[ http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/nigeria.htm ]

Perhaps civics education and engagement in positive civics programs would be helpful within the Nigerian community? Would the housing estates be appropriate places to introduce sport based programs and civics programs so that ease of access and community ownership is fostered?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is interesting that Nigerians refer to the failure of African leaders in their home countries as an explanation for Nigerian nationalist involvement.[ <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/nigeria.htm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/nigeria.htm</a> ]</p>
<p>Perhaps civics education and engagement in positive civics programs would be helpful within the Nigerian community? Would the housing estates be appropriate places to introduce sport based programs and civics programs so that ease of access and community ownership is fostered?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4069</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7334#comment-4069</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The Guardian has published a survey of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-magistrates-court-list#data&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;1,000 who have been brought to court&lt;/a&gt; and found them to be &quot;overwhelmingly young, male and unemployed&quot;. The report does not mention the issue of ethnicity, presumably to be politically correct. I did a search on &#039;london riots sociological analysis&#039; and came up with this information:
A report on ethnicity in the London riots using official data is available here: http://humstats.blogspot.com/2011/08/uk-riots-ethnicity-statistics.html
Very short summary:
1) Over 50% rioters are black, below 30% are white (CCTV in 2)
2) Black people are 10-65 times more likely to participate in riots (CCTV, data in 2)
2) High unemployment in London -&gt; riots? (map in 1D)
3) Black areas -&gt; riots? (map in 1A)
4) Low social class != riots, low training !=riots (maps in 1B, 1C)
5) Black areas = high unemployment (map in 1E-2)
6) High unemployment + black areas = riots (maps in 3E)
7) High unemployment + non-black areas = no riots (maps in 1E, map in 3B)

The &lt;a href=&quot;http://allafrica.com/stories/201108151292.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Allafrica &lt;/a&gt;website comments that: &#039;Nigerians living in London have blamed African leaders for the riots that has rocked the United Kingdom since last Saturday. According to them, the riots which were allegedly led by 99 percent blacks, was a reaction to years of poor leadership in Africa and the harsh economic realities in the United Kingdom also. British austerity measures have hit low-income areas like Tottenham hard.&#039;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Guardian has published a survey of <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-magistrates-court-list#data" rel="nofollow">1,000 who have been brought to court</a> and found them to be &#8220;overwhelmingly young, male and unemployed&#8221;. The report does not mention the issue of ethnicity, presumably to be politically correct. I did a search on &#8216;london riots sociological analysis&#8217; and came up with this information:<br />
A report on ethnicity in the London riots using official data is available here: <a href="http://humstats.blogspot.com/2011/08/uk-riots-ethnicity-statistics.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://humstats.blogspot.com/2011/08/uk-riots-ethnicity-statistics.html</a><br />
Very short summary:<br />
1) Over 50% rioters are black, below 30% are white (CCTV in 2)<br />
2) Black people are 10-65 times more likely to participate in riots (CCTV, data in 2)<br />
2) High unemployment in London -> riots? (map in 1D)<br />
3) Black areas -> riots? (map in 1A)<br />
4) Low social class != riots, low training !=riots (maps in 1B, 1C)<br />
5) Black areas = high unemployment (map in 1E-2)<br />
6) High unemployment + black areas = riots (maps in 3E)<br />
7) High unemployment + non-black areas = no riots (maps in 1E, map in 3B)</p>
<p>The <a href="http://allafrica.com/stories/201108151292.html" rel="nofollow">Allafrica </a>website comments that: &#8216;Nigerians living in London have blamed African leaders for the riots that has rocked the United Kingdom since last Saturday. According to them, the riots which were allegedly led by 99 percent blacks, was a reaction to years of poor leadership in Africa and the harsh economic realities in the United Kingdom also. British austerity measures have hit low-income areas like Tottenham hard.&#8217;</p>
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		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4068</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Aug 2011 04:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7334#comment-4068</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4067&quot;&gt;Christine&lt;/a&gt;.

I think of &#039;religion&#039; as a western concept, involving rigid rules and a separation from other aspects of life. And I think of &#039;spiritual&#039; primarily as a contrast to &#039;material&#039;. &#039;Spiritual&#039; is difficult to define and &#039;material&#039; is easy to define, so the contrast is easy. But for everyone,&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; including Adolf Hitler&lt;/a&gt;, there are material and spiritual components to their motivation.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4067">Christine</a>.</p>
<p>I think of &#8216;religion&#8217; as a western concept, involving rigid rules and a separation from other aspects of life. And I think of &#8216;spiritual&#8217; primarily as a contrast to &#8216;material&#8217;. &#8216;Spiritual&#8217; is difficult to define and &#8216;material&#8217; is easy to define, so the contrast is easy. But for everyone,<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views" rel="nofollow"> including Adolf Hitler</a>, there are material and spiritual components to their motivation.</p>
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		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/london-recreational-looting-in-august-2011/#comment-4067</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7334#comment-4067</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It is interesting to ponder whether the requirements for religious life might be different from the requirements for a secular life.

The question of earning a living and supporting a family is perhaps central here.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is interesting to ponder whether the requirements for religious life might be different from the requirements for a secular life.</p>
<p>The question of earning a living and supporting a family is perhaps central here.</p>
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