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	Comments on: Is Forum Magnum the stupidest urban landscape design in London?	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Grant		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/is-this-the-stupidest-urban-landscape-design-in-london/#comment-3923</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Grant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 22:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7129#comment-3923</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Public or private? Like you i love the london Squares and as a child i used to manage to get in them even though they were private. Now as an Adult  they feel elitist and wasted.....so public it is!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Public or private? Like you i love the london Squares and as a child i used to manage to get in them even though they were private. Now as an Adult  they feel elitist and wasted&#8230;..so public it is!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Grant		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/is-this-the-stupidest-urban-landscape-design-in-london/#comment-3922</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Grant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2011 22:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7129#comment-3922</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sounds good to me Tom, though the quiet contemplative space (by the council at least) could be interpreted as under used and thus little maintenance by the council due to the afore mentioned reason. So adoption by the locals is a must, which would also encourage lobbing and well as volunteering to keep the area falling into disrepair. There is definitly a strategy in your thinking, so a slowing down as an option on route to the the Thames.

Just reading this section has really made me think about absolute foundations of community support for a project, before a pencil has even come in contact with paper.

Must remember that for September!!!!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds good to me Tom, though the quiet contemplative space (by the council at least) could be interpreted as under used and thus little maintenance by the council due to the afore mentioned reason. So adoption by the locals is a must, which would also encourage lobbing and well as volunteering to keep the area falling into disrepair. There is definitly a strategy in your thinking, so a slowing down as an option on route to the the Thames.</p>
<p>Just reading this section has really made me think about absolute foundations of community support for a project, before a pencil has even come in contact with paper.</p>
<p>Must remember that for September!!!!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/is-this-the-stupidest-urban-landscape-design-in-london/#comment-3921</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2011 04:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7129#comment-3921</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/is-this-the-stupidest-urban-landscape-design-in-london/#comment-3920&quot;&gt;Grant&lt;/a&gt;.

I think the problem is that the Council Planning Department did not have any sensible ideas, only a vague notion that &#039;a new urban square would be a valuable planning gain&#039;. If it is true that the residents do not want the space to be a social hub then I think the option of making Forum Magnum a contemplative space is the best choice. After all, there are many other places for crowds to throng on the South Bank. So here is a proposal: take up the paving and devote the &#039;square&#039; to biodiversity, surface water management and beauty. I would like to see it as a soft swamp with vapours rising from the water at dawn. There would be sunlight flickering in the reeds, wild fowl building nests and teaching their chicks to swim. In the evening one could contemplate the croaking of frogs and the future of life on earth.
But if the residents &lt;em&gt;do &lt;/em&gt;want a busy space then it should be a cafe-market space with exotic coffees in the morning, chic food at lunch time, elegant dining in the evening and lots of things to buy all day. These activities would be income-generating and the residents could make money from their asset, which might be popular.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/is-this-the-stupidest-urban-landscape-design-in-london/#comment-3920">Grant</a>.</p>
<p>I think the problem is that the Council Planning Department did not have any sensible ideas, only a vague notion that &#8216;a new urban square would be a valuable planning gain&#8217;. If it is true that the residents do not want the space to be a social hub then I think the option of making Forum Magnum a contemplative space is the best choice. After all, there are many other places for crowds to throng on the South Bank. So here is a proposal: take up the paving and devote the &#8216;square&#8217; to biodiversity, surface water management and beauty. I would like to see it as a soft swamp with vapours rising from the water at dawn. There would be sunlight flickering in the reeds, wild fowl building nests and teaching their chicks to swim. In the evening one could contemplate the croaking of frogs and the future of life on earth.<br />
But if the residents <em>do </em>want a busy space then it should be a cafe-market space with exotic coffees in the morning, chic food at lunch time, elegant dining in the evening and lots of things to buy all day. These activities would be income-generating and the residents could make money from their asset, which might be popular.</p>
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		By: Grant		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/is-this-the-stupidest-urban-landscape-design-in-london/#comment-3920</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Grant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Aug 2011 20:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7129#comment-3920</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[True true, its a case of what is the ultimate aim,

a) For it be a pretty transit route to the thames, a pleasant corridor if you like.

b) Somewhere to meander, slow down take in the surroundings, but not a long stay, so don&#039;t provide too much. (Very much the plaza problem in New York pre Holly Whyte)

c) Or finally an area that becomes a place, with all the pit falls (depending how you see it, once a place gets gentrified, community seems to go out of the window, people living their isolated cells) of having people actually stop, as this is destination.

Between the residents/business this has to be decided then a design can be submitted, with the base remit sorted. Though as we know you can&#039;t please all the people all the time.  I am certainly not suggesting design by committee. So looking at space as the photograph suggests, they really don&#039;t want people to stop. So Avenues of tree&#039;s and water in a directional sense, leading to the river. Money saved use on a space that is for the benefit of all, not the select few.

Maybe that was the Councils idea all along???]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True true, its a case of what is the ultimate aim,</p>
<p>a) For it be a pretty transit route to the thames, a pleasant corridor if you like.</p>
<p>b) Somewhere to meander, slow down take in the surroundings, but not a long stay, so don&#8217;t provide too much. (Very much the plaza problem in New York pre Holly Whyte)</p>
<p>c) Or finally an area that becomes a place, with all the pit falls (depending how you see it, once a place gets gentrified, community seems to go out of the window, people living their isolated cells) of having people actually stop, as this is destination.</p>
<p>Between the residents/business this has to be decided then a design can be submitted, with the base remit sorted. Though as we know you can&#8217;t please all the people all the time.  I am certainly not suggesting design by committee. So looking at space as the photograph suggests, they really don&#8217;t want people to stop. So Avenues of tree&#8217;s and water in a directional sense, leading to the river. Money saved use on a space that is for the benefit of all, not the select few.</p>
<p>Maybe that was the Councils idea all along???</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/is-this-the-stupidest-urban-landscape-design-in-london/#comment-3919</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Aug 2011 19:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7129#comment-3919</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Grant, I agree with everything you say but (1) success breeds success (2) failure breeds failure.
Do you think that providing seats, food and water would be enough to turn the space round?
Also, how would you deal with the problem that the residents probably do not want a Piazza Navona below their windows? They probably prefer having the space empty!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grant, I agree with everything you say but (1) success breeds success (2) failure breeds failure.<br />
Do you think that providing seats, food and water would be enough to turn the space round?<br />
Also, how would you deal with the problem that the residents probably do not want a Piazza Navona below their windows? They probably prefer having the space empty!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Grant		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/is-this-the-stupidest-urban-landscape-design-in-london/#comment-3918</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Grant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Aug 2011 18:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7129#comment-3918</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The bottom line is ...to attract people and turn it into a &#039;Place&#039;. People attract people, as we know the most popular sport in the world is People watching, So fundamentals what attracts people ,regularly to a space?, When it becomes a place, think Covent Garden, how many times have you said (those who live in London) meet you in covent Gardens? Most of us at one time or another.

Well if we take people watching as a start then you need some were to sit (preferably movable chairs as well as cafe seating). Comfortable so heat sink planting and trees. Water for focus and white noise as well as refreshing spray. Also somewhere in the heat to dangle those hot sore feet, great for conservation a real barrie breaker, (people watching at Di&#039;s memorial is proof of this so lovely to see).
Human scale so if a large expanse reduce the area to area&#039;s that feel comfortable. Leaving space for public entertainers and stalls.
Food/drink.
In my humble opinion its more about people than some chic empty space. People are messy, so the price you pay for a popular space, is a high upkeep, but if business benefits then they (self interest ) will be interested in the upkeep of the place.

So Sit, Food, Water, People watching, Meeting place, Human scale.  This is the theory of Holly Whyte who studied the Plaza&#039;s of New York (1980) to discover why one was busy and popular and the others were not. Changed the policy of city planning with his results, now that is some study.

So what ever we design as in shape, pattern, or from a ecological perspective.Its the end user that dictates, not the designer. Design is for the improvement of the many. Not for us as designer to dictate. What a joy it would be for any of us to design a scheme that was used and became a &#039;Place&#039;.

What would I do?

Personally find out the needs of the area, its short comings and what would really benefit the people who live and work there.

Then incorporate some of the previous posters idea&#039;s (got out of that one ).

After my 4 years of study ( and er 40 ish+ years of observation) i keep coming back to the above conclusion.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The bottom line is &#8230;to attract people and turn it into a &#8216;Place&#8217;. People attract people, as we know the most popular sport in the world is People watching, So fundamentals what attracts people ,regularly to a space?, When it becomes a place, think Covent Garden, how many times have you said (those who live in London) meet you in covent Gardens? Most of us at one time or another.</p>
<p>Well if we take people watching as a start then you need some were to sit (preferably movable chairs as well as cafe seating). Comfortable so heat sink planting and trees. Water for focus and white noise as well as refreshing spray. Also somewhere in the heat to dangle those hot sore feet, great for conservation a real barrie breaker, (people watching at Di&#8217;s memorial is proof of this so lovely to see).<br />
Human scale so if a large expanse reduce the area to area&#8217;s that feel comfortable. Leaving space for public entertainers and stalls.<br />
Food/drink.<br />
In my humble opinion its more about people than some chic empty space. People are messy, so the price you pay for a popular space, is a high upkeep, but if business benefits then they (self interest ) will be interested in the upkeep of the place.</p>
<p>So Sit, Food, Water, People watching, Meeting place, Human scale.  This is the theory of Holly Whyte who studied the Plaza&#8217;s of New York (1980) to discover why one was busy and popular and the others were not. Changed the policy of city planning with his results, now that is some study.</p>
<p>So what ever we design as in shape, pattern, or from a ecological perspective.Its the end user that dictates, not the designer. Design is for the improvement of the many. Not for us as designer to dictate. What a joy it would be for any of us to design a scheme that was used and became a &#8216;Place&#8217;.</p>
<p>What would I do?</p>
<p>Personally find out the needs of the area, its short comings and what would really benefit the people who live and work there.</p>
<p>Then incorporate some of the previous posters idea&#8217;s (got out of that one ).</p>
<p>After my 4 years of study ( and er 40 ish+ years of observation) i keep coming back to the above conclusion.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/is-this-the-stupidest-urban-landscape-design-in-london/#comment-3917</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2011 05:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7129#comment-3917</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Very good questions.  If I lived in the County Hall Apartments, I would want it to be communal space, not a public space. This was the traditional arrangement for residential squares in London and it continues to work well. So of the alternatives you offer, I think a contemplative space would be the best. The planners, I assume, required it to be a public space and so I think a public contemplative space would be the best solution from their point of view. It should not have been paved like a medieval piazza. A market place with out a market is a very stupid idea. But a serene contemplative water body, which hushed all visitors into silent wonder, would be something worth having.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good questions.  If I lived in the County Hall Apartments, I would want it to be communal space, not a public space. This was the traditional arrangement for residential squares in London and it continues to work well. So of the alternatives you offer, I think a contemplative space would be the best. The planners, I assume, required it to be a public space and so I think a public contemplative space would be the best solution from their point of view. It should not have been paved like a medieval piazza. A market place with out a market is a very stupid idea. But a serene contemplative water body, which hushed all visitors into silent wonder, would be something worth having.</p>
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		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/is-this-the-stupidest-urban-landscape-design-in-london/#comment-3916</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2011 05:22:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7129#comment-3916</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So the question is: how busy/peopled should the square be? What is the qualitative feel or experience that the designer should be aiming for? Supposing the fountain is still being considered then:

Is it a contemplative space: [ http://www.flickr.com/photos/9709151@N04/2198990881/ ]

An interactive space: [ http://a.rgbimg.com/cache1oZLaA/users/m/mi/micromoth/300/mDa8NAG.jpg ]

A surprising space: [ http://takeonlymemories.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/p1010550-dancing-fountains.jpg ]

Or an astonishing space:
[ http://tagger.steve.museum/images/institution_LACMA/AC1995_170_1.jpg ] etc.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the question is: how busy/peopled should the square be? What is the qualitative feel or experience that the designer should be aiming for? Supposing the fountain is still being considered then:</p>
<p>Is it a contemplative space: [ <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/9709151@N04/2198990881/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.flickr.com/photos/9709151@N04/2198990881/</a> ]</p>
<p>An interactive space: [ <a href="http://a.rgbimg.com/cache1oZLaA/users/m/mi/micromoth/300/mDa8NAG.jpg" rel="nofollow ugc">http://a.rgbimg.com/cache1oZLaA/users/m/mi/micromoth/300/mDa8NAG.jpg</a> ]</p>
<p>A surprising space: [ <a href="http://takeonlymemories.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/p1010550-dancing-fountains.jpg" rel="nofollow ugc">http://takeonlymemories.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/p1010550-dancing-fountains.jpg</a> ]</p>
<p>Or an astonishing space:<br />
[ <a href="http://tagger.steve.museum/images/institution_LACMA/AC1995_170_1.jpg" rel="nofollow ugc">http://tagger.steve.museum/images/institution_LACMA/AC1995_170_1.jpg</a> ] etc.</p>
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		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/is-this-the-stupidest-urban-landscape-design-in-london/#comment-3915</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2011 03:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7129#comment-3915</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The best precedents for fountain squares are of course in Rome. But would they work in London and would they work in Forum Magnum Square?
&lt;em&gt;Maybe&lt;/em&gt;: the nearest London has to a &#039;fountain square&#039; is Trafalgar Square. The fountains add to the quality of the square but I do not think they are the big attraction which draws the visitors.
&lt;em&gt;Maybe not&lt;/em&gt;: London&#039;s climate does not &#039;call out&#039; for fountains as the Roman climate does.
Rome has two fountain squares of particular relevance: (1) the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Navona&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Piazza Navona&lt;/a&gt; is immensely popular, and has a Four Rivers fountain - but it has many more things going for it than the Forum Magnum and it should never be assumed that design ideas which work in Southern Europe will also work in Northern Europe, or North America or Asia (2) the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevi_Fountain&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Piazza di Trevi &lt;/a&gt;, after 4 centuries, still has the best fountain in the world AND this fountain is surely the reason for 90% of visits to the square.
So yes, if Forum Magnum was given the second best fountain in the world I believe it would attract visitors. But (1) who would pay for the fountain? (2) why should the residents, who own the square, turn their &#039;backyard&#039; into a major tourist attraction?  You need a Baroque Prince who is also a Pope if you want Trevi-quality fountains, though billionaires wanting immortality are reasonable alternative.
So I do not think a fountain is the natural solution to the Forum Magnum problem: it would be an instanace of using great wealth to overcome a design problem which never should have been allowed to happen. Installing a fabulous fountain would be &#039;throwing money at the problem&#039;; urban designers should not create problems which require shedloads of cash to &#039;solve&#039;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best precedents for fountain squares are of course in Rome. But would they work in London and would they work in Forum Magnum Square?<br />
<em>Maybe</em>: the nearest London has to a &#8216;fountain square&#8217; is Trafalgar Square. The fountains add to the quality of the square but I do not think they are the big attraction which draws the visitors.<br />
<em>Maybe not</em>: London&#8217;s climate does not &#8216;call out&#8217; for fountains as the Roman climate does.<br />
Rome has two fountain squares of particular relevance: (1) the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Navona" rel="nofollow">Piazza Navona</a> is immensely popular, and has a Four Rivers fountain &#8211; but it has many more things going for it than the Forum Magnum and it should never be assumed that design ideas which work in Southern Europe will also work in Northern Europe, or North America or Asia (2) the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevi_Fountain" rel="nofollow">Piazza di Trevi </a>, after 4 centuries, still has the best fountain in the world AND this fountain is surely the reason for 90% of visits to the square.<br />
So yes, if Forum Magnum was given the second best fountain in the world I believe it would attract visitors. But (1) who would pay for the fountain? (2) why should the residents, who own the square, turn their &#8216;backyard&#8217; into a major tourist attraction?  You need a Baroque Prince who is also a Pope if you want Trevi-quality fountains, though billionaires wanting immortality are reasonable alternative.<br />
So I do not think a fountain is the natural solution to the Forum Magnum problem: it would be an instanace of using great wealth to overcome a design problem which never should have been allowed to happen. Installing a fabulous fountain would be &#8216;throwing money at the problem&#8217;; urban designers should not create problems which require shedloads of cash to &#8216;solve&#8217;.</p>
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		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/is-this-the-stupidest-urban-landscape-design-in-london/#comment-3914</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2011 02:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7129#comment-3914</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I agree with Yuan. A big fountain would be fantastic, especially if it was designed so people could sit beside/around it with opportunities to sit in the sun or shade depending on the temperature and time of the day. The square could act to draw people towards that ultimate destination, Father Thames. (Perhaps the fountain could have an infinity edge closer to the Thames?)[ http://www.cement-pool.com/2010/11/06/infinity-pool-3-2/ ] The square would then be aesthetically interesting when empty and when peopled.

The cafe in the foreground might also benefit from passing trade. The water could mask conversation and provide a calm and cooling ambiance to the surrounding residential uses.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Yuan. A big fountain would be fantastic, especially if it was designed so people could sit beside/around it with opportunities to sit in the sun or shade depending on the temperature and time of the day. The square could act to draw people towards that ultimate destination, Father Thames. (Perhaps the fountain could have an infinity edge closer to the Thames?)[ <a href="http://www.cement-pool.com/2010/11/06/infinity-pool-3-2/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.cement-pool.com/2010/11/06/infinity-pool-3-2/</a> ] The square would then be aesthetically interesting when empty and when peopled.</p>
<p>The cafe in the foreground might also benefit from passing trade. The water could mask conversation and provide a calm and cooling ambiance to the surrounding residential uses.</p>
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