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	Comments on: Forms can follow functions in garden design, landscape design and urban design	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/forms-can-follow-functions-in-garden-design-landscape-design-and-urban-design/#comment-2906</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 04:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=5811#comment-2906</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Whatever vegetable in the plot he was it seems Charles Caccia truly walked the talk. He died in 2008 so I hope he is accorded the international recognition he deserves for his contributions to international sustainable development. He should be commemorated at the UN in either Geneva or New York.

[ http://store.wildernesscommittee.org/campaigns/historic/stoltmann_wilderness/reports/Vol19No03/1st_nations ]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever vegetable in the plot he was it seems Charles Caccia truly walked the talk. He died in 2008 so I hope he is accorded the international recognition he deserves for his contributions to international sustainable development. He should be commemorated at the UN in either Geneva or New York.</p>
<p>[ <a href="http://store.wildernesscommittee.org/campaigns/historic/stoltmann_wilderness/reports/Vol19No03/1st_nations" rel="nofollow ugc">http://store.wildernesscommittee.org/campaigns/historic/stoltmann_wilderness/reports/Vol19No03/1st_nations</a> ]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/forms-can-follow-functions-in-garden-design-landscape-design-and-urban-design/#comment-2905</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Nov 2010 05:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=5811#comment-2905</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/forms-can-follow-functions-in-garden-design-landscape-design-and-urban-design/#comment-2904&quot;&gt;Christine&lt;/a&gt;.

Ustryalov likened Soviet Russia to a &lt;em&gt;radish &lt;/em&gt;- red outside and white inside. This has been followed by the remark that middle class blacks are are &lt;em&gt;coconuts &lt;/em&gt;or &lt;em&gt;potatoes &lt;/em&gt;( brown outside and white inside) and the rising generation of civic and industrial leades are &lt;em&gt;watermelons &lt;/em&gt;(green outside and red inside). So perhaps we need an environmental equivalent of Human Rights Watch, monitoring our leaders to measure the relationship between what they say and what they do.
BP sent out the following &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9029879&#038;contentId=7056825&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Christmas Newsletter in December 2009&lt;/a&gt;: Christmas is not the easiest time of year to be green. So while there’s plenty we can still do better in the ways we choose to celebrate the season, it’s a particularly good time to think about neutralising the carbon we’ll inevitably generate. That’s why our focus in this issue is on carbon offsetting – the “neutralise” part of the BP Target Neutral programme.

raddish is red outside and white inside]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/forms-can-follow-functions-in-garden-design-landscape-design-and-urban-design/#comment-2904">Christine</a>.</p>
<p>Ustryalov likened Soviet Russia to a <em>radish </em>&#8211; red outside and white inside. This has been followed by the remark that middle class blacks are are <em>coconuts </em>or <em>potatoes </em>( brown outside and white inside) and the rising generation of civic and industrial leades are <em>watermelons </em>(green outside and red inside). So perhaps we need an environmental equivalent of Human Rights Watch, monitoring our leaders to measure the relationship between what they say and what they do.<br />
BP sent out the following <a href="http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9029879&amp;contentId=7056825" rel="nofollow">Christmas Newsletter in December 2009</a>: Christmas is not the easiest time of year to be green. So while there’s plenty we can still do better in the ways we choose to celebrate the season, it’s a particularly good time to think about neutralising the carbon we’ll inevitably generate. That’s why our focus in this issue is on carbon offsetting – the “neutralise” part of the BP Target Neutral programme.</p>
<p>raddish is red outside and white inside</p>
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		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/forms-can-follow-functions-in-garden-design-landscape-design-and-urban-design/#comment-2904</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Nov 2010 01:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=5811#comment-2904</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well I would definitely say post post modernism is post new urbanism. New urbanism is a social movement.

Post post modernism is inherently green centred (eco-centred), afterall why would a landscape architect be concerned with it otherwise?

In some ways Post post modern consciousness could date to the Brundtland Report of 1987. It is interesting to reflect on this statement by Charles Caccia:

&quot;How long can we go on and safely pretend that the environment is not the economy, is not health, is not the prerequisite to development, is not recreation? Is it realistic to see ourselves as managers of an entity out there called the environment, extraneous to us, an alternative to the economy, too expensive a value to protect in difficult economic times? When we organize ourselves starting from this premise, we do so with dangerous consequences to our economy, health, and industrial growth.
We are now just beginning to realize that we must find an alternative to our ingrained behaviour of burdening future generations resulting from our misplaced belief that there is a choice between economy and the environment. That choice, in the long term, turns out to be an illusion with awesome consequences for humanity.&quot;

Charles Caccia
Member of Parliament, House of Commons
WCED Public Hearing
Ottawa, 26-27 May 1986

Post post modern thinking is inherently thinking &#039;beyond&#039; humanity and &#039;beyond&#039; right now.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I would definitely say post post modernism is post new urbanism. New urbanism is a social movement.</p>
<p>Post post modernism is inherently green centred (eco-centred), afterall why would a landscape architect be concerned with it otherwise?</p>
<p>In some ways Post post modern consciousness could date to the Brundtland Report of 1987. It is interesting to reflect on this statement by Charles Caccia:</p>
<p>&#8220;How long can we go on and safely pretend that the environment is not the economy, is not health, is not the prerequisite to development, is not recreation? Is it realistic to see ourselves as managers of an entity out there called the environment, extraneous to us, an alternative to the economy, too expensive a value to protect in difficult economic times? When we organize ourselves starting from this premise, we do so with dangerous consequences to our economy, health, and industrial growth.<br />
We are now just beginning to realize that we must find an alternative to our ingrained behaviour of burdening future generations resulting from our misplaced belief that there is a choice between economy and the environment. That choice, in the long term, turns out to be an illusion with awesome consequences for humanity.&#8221;</p>
<p>Charles Caccia<br />
Member of Parliament, House of Commons<br />
WCED Public Hearing<br />
Ottawa, 26-27 May 1986</p>
<p>Post post modern thinking is inherently thinking &#8216;beyond&#8217; humanity and &#8216;beyond&#8217; right now.</p>
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		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/forms-can-follow-functions-in-garden-design-landscape-design-and-urban-design/#comment-2903</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=5811#comment-2903</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I am worried that the Wikipedia Barons (3,000 bossy boots who delete posts for unknown reasons) are discouraging enthusiasts from updating the content. The sections I keep an eye on were growing rapidly at one time and now seem to have stagnated. I used to work on the Garden History section at one time but have given up on it for this reason. With Postmodernism now almost 40 (on Charles Jencks&#039; definition) it is time to think about the post-Postmodern.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am worried that the Wikipedia Barons (3,000 bossy boots who delete posts for unknown reasons) are discouraging enthusiasts from updating the content. The sections I keep an eye on were growing rapidly at one time and now seem to have stagnated. I used to work on the Garden History section at one time but have given up on it for this reason. With Postmodernism now almost 40 (on Charles Jencks&#8217; definition) it is time to think about the post-Postmodern.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/forms-can-follow-functions-in-garden-design-landscape-design-and-urban-design/#comment-2902</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Nov 2010 03:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=5811#comment-2902</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In which case a new entry will be necessary under post post modernism. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics ]

Well I suppose &#039;natural&#039; disasters are more the contemporary concern than plagues. Although the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation focuses on the elimination of malaria through the distribution of mosquito nets. [ http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Pages/home.aspx ] Installing flywire screens can also assist with eliminating mosquitoes from buildings.

&quot;....they are ubiquitous in the French and Italian parts of the mediterranean. During warm weather they are shut, to keep the flat in cool shade, and parts of them are like small insect shutters that you can open separately, for air and light.&quot;
[ http://princexswe.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/img_0352.jpg?w=500&#038;h=375 ]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In which case a new entry will be necessary under post post modernism. [ <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics" rel="nofollow ugc">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics</a> ]</p>
<p>Well I suppose &#8216;natural&#8217; disasters are more the contemporary concern than plagues. Although the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation focuses on the elimination of malaria through the distribution of mosquito nets. [ <a href="http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Pages/home.aspx" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Pages/home.aspx</a> ] Installing flywire screens can also assist with eliminating mosquitoes from buildings.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;.they are ubiquitous in the French and Italian parts of the mediterranean. During warm weather they are shut, to keep the flat in cool shade, and parts of them are like small insect shutters that you can open separately, for air and light.&#8221;<br />
[ <a href="http://princexswe.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/img_0352.jpg?w=500&#038;h=375" rel="nofollow ugc">http://princexswe.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/img_0352.jpg?w=500&#038;h=375</a> ]</p>
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		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/forms-can-follow-functions-in-garden-design-landscape-design-and-urban-design/#comment-2901</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=5811#comment-2901</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[But if we are talking about belief systems then it should be aesthetic&lt;strong&gt;s&lt;/strong&gt; - not &#039;an aesthetic&#039;. As for the nicely named &#039;wicked problems&#039;, I don&#039;t they are much more wicked than the problems faced by our predecessors (eg 7 plagues).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But if we are talking about belief systems then it should be aesthetic<strong>s</strong> &#8211; not &#8216;an aesthetic&#8217;. As for the nicely named &#8216;wicked problems&#8217;, I don&#8217;t they are much more wicked than the problems faced by our predecessors (eg 7 plagues).</p>
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		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/forms-can-follow-functions-in-garden-design-landscape-design-and-urban-design/#comment-2900</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2010 04:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=5811#comment-2900</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It seem like Post post modernism is an emerging way of thinking and doing based on reason and belief (in the possible) which has not quite crystalised into a discernible aesthetic. My take on it is that it has less to do with chaos and complexity (The Post modern) and more to do with responding to wicked problems: order and complexity (The Post post modern).
[ http://complexworld.pbworks.com/f/1186931653/wicked%20problems%20picture%20julian%20burton.jpg ]

I suppose the Post post modern responds to the Post modern view of the world and the peculiarly postmodern problems that postmodernity exposed with an optimism rather than a pessimism.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seem like Post post modernism is an emerging way of thinking and doing based on reason and belief (in the possible) which has not quite crystalised into a discernible aesthetic. My take on it is that it has less to do with chaos and complexity (The Post modern) and more to do with responding to wicked problems: order and complexity (The Post post modern).<br />
[ <a href="http://complexworld.pbworks.com/f/1186931653/wicked%20problems%20picture%20julian%20burton.jpg" rel="nofollow ugc">http://complexworld.pbworks.com/f/1186931653/wicked%20problems%20picture%20julian%20burton.jpg</a> ]</p>
<p>I suppose the Post post modern responds to the Post modern view of the world and the peculiarly postmodern problems that postmodernity exposed with an optimism rather than a pessimism.</p>
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		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/forms-can-follow-functions-in-garden-design-landscape-design-and-urban-design/#comment-2899</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2010 08:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=5811#comment-2899</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I like the idea of being avant-garde (!) and I like the above definition.
At the broadest level my argument is that Modernism was based on the premiss that Reason could supply the best answers to most of the most important questions. I think this was always false and that Beliefs are, at least, as important. This does not make me a religious person in the western sense but I also think there is a need for belief systems which are put together with help from reason, constantly re-considered and handed down the generations.
So post-post-modernism is, in the shell of a nut, is an amalgam of Reason+Beliefs.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea of being avant-garde (!) and I like the above definition.<br />
At the broadest level my argument is that Modernism was based on the premiss that Reason could supply the best answers to most of the most important questions. I think this was always false and that Beliefs are, at least, as important. This does not make me a religious person in the western sense but I also think there is a need for belief systems which are put together with help from reason, constantly re-considered and handed down the generations.<br />
So post-post-modernism is, in the shell of a nut, is an amalgam of Reason+Beliefs.</p>
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		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/forms-can-follow-functions-in-garden-design-landscape-design-and-urban-design/#comment-2898</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2010 07:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=5811#comment-2898</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sorry Tom, I should have clarified more succinctly. Fractal Architecture can be considered part of the Post-modern movement (in a temporal sense) rather than Post-modern in style. And despite my criticisms the urban space around the Federation Square buildings can also be considered belonging to Fractal aesthetic theory and Post-modern philosophy (which is the foundation for the postmodern movement).

Postmodernity and the postmodern:

&quot;When people talk about postmodernism, the problem is that they are referring to something very elusive and slippery. In the academic world, it is best understood as a new Weltanschaung - a new organizing principle in thought, action, and reflection, connected to many changing factors in modern society. The term postmodern was first applied, around 1971, to a new architectural style which combined old, classical forms with modern pragmatism and scientific engineering. Since then, the postmodernist advocates have used the term to describe their movement as a reaction to the wholesale failure of modernity - the betrayals of the modernist movement in the arts, primarily, but also modernity understood as a social process - industrialization, urbanization, centralization, and &#039;progress&#039; and &#039;civilization&#039; as those terms are often used popularly. This movement is not called &#039;antimodernism&#039; because it is not a rejection of modernity in toto , but as its advocates claim, an effort to combine the best of the modern world with the best elements of the traditions of the past, in an organic way that eliminates the worst parts of both.&quot;

As a post-post Modernist in style (aesthetic) and/or/both movement (thought) you are somewhat in the avant garde?

Oh, and yes, maybe a purist fractalist would see Federation Square as a Fractal Jacket on a Modernist structure!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Tom, I should have clarified more succinctly. Fractal Architecture can be considered part of the Post-modern movement (in a temporal sense) rather than Post-modern in style. And despite my criticisms the urban space around the Federation Square buildings can also be considered belonging to Fractal aesthetic theory and Post-modern philosophy (which is the foundation for the postmodern movement).</p>
<p>Postmodernity and the postmodern:</p>
<p>&#8220;When people talk about postmodernism, the problem is that they are referring to something very elusive and slippery. In the academic world, it is best understood as a new Weltanschaung &#8211; a new organizing principle in thought, action, and reflection, connected to many changing factors in modern society. The term postmodern was first applied, around 1971, to a new architectural style which combined old, classical forms with modern pragmatism and scientific engineering. Since then, the postmodernist advocates have used the term to describe their movement as a reaction to the wholesale failure of modernity &#8211; the betrayals of the modernist movement in the arts, primarily, but also modernity understood as a social process &#8211; industrialization, urbanization, centralization, and &#8216;progress&#8217; and &#8216;civilization&#8217; as those terms are often used popularly. This movement is not called &#8216;antimodernism&#8217; because it is not a rejection of modernity in toto , but as its advocates claim, an effort to combine the best of the modern world with the best elements of the traditions of the past, in an organic way that eliminates the worst parts of both.&#8221;</p>
<p>As a post-post Modernist in style (aesthetic) and/or/both movement (thought) you are somewhat in the avant garde?</p>
<p>Oh, and yes, maybe a purist fractalist would see Federation Square as a Fractal Jacket on a Modernist structure!</p>
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		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/forms-can-follow-functions-in-garden-design-landscape-design-and-urban-design/#comment-2897</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2010 06:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=5811#comment-2897</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Maybe not the design of the open space but I would classify the striking buildings which contain Federation Square as post-Modern because they come after Modernism and do not share the aesthetic of Modernism. I also accept the categorization Fractal Architecture - as a subset of the  post-Modern. Is it a Fractal Jacket on a Modernist structure?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe not the design of the open space but I would classify the striking buildings which contain Federation Square as post-Modern because they come after Modernism and do not share the aesthetic of Modernism. I also accept the categorization Fractal Architecture &#8211; as a subset of the  post-Modern. Is it a Fractal Jacket on a Modernist structure?</p>
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