Comments on: Brilliant design for public safety in London's Finsbury Park contrasts with horrific design in Germany

By: Tom Turner

Tom Turner — Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:02:49 +0000

I agree about NEED for freedom. But there is also a need for protection and I would argue for maintaining a distinction between bound and unbound public greenspace. Re BBQs and swimming in parks the possibilities are (1) lobby the local council (2) become the Chair of the Leisure Services Committee (3) write to the papers! (4) argue the case for landscape designers and landscape managers [instead of horticulturalists] to be placed in charge of parks (5) send all members of leisure services committees on world tours (6) launch a research study of park management in different countries (7) pray.

By: Paige

Paige — Sat, 13 Mar 2010 14:09:48 +0000

Brilliant to see your post, Tom. Thank you. I have been going on about this no BBQ issue for years and have been hit by the reality recently. While trying to organise a charity cycle ride and outdoor BBQ, it is proving most difficult to find a venue. I have been told by the county council it is too dangerous because someone could “bump” into the BBQ and knock it over (we are talking about a large catering BBQ here).
As for the amenities in Germany, while I would agree one would find proper BBQ pits/stands and rubbish bins as mentioned in a previous post, also many Germans would issue a swift reminder should you forget to clean up – something which is not as likely to happen in Britain. There seems to be a bit of “volunteer policing” in Germany which we do not often find in this country.
There are so many beautiful places in the UK. I just wish we had the freedom to go out, have a BBQ, jump in the water if we want and enjoy what little bit of good weather we have — Not be constantly reminded that somehow we are incapable of demonstrating common sense.
What can be done?

By: Christine

Christine — Mon, 01 Mar 2010 05:32:16 +0000

I would agree that the distinctions between the secular and the sacred were probably not as sharp as we experience them today.

In 1916 children certainly bathed naked and out of doors in Australia.
[ http://www.museumsaustralia.org.au/site/A%20feast%20of%20photography.php ]

It is highly probable that adults bathed naked and out of doors in Australia too.
[ http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks09/0900091h.html ]

By: Tom Turner

Tom Turner — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 10:38:32 +0000

It’s hard to know where to look in seeking answers to these questions so I can only offer valueless guesses. Re the sacred or secular question, my guess is that the separation was less sharp than it later became and that since the Nile was closely associated with Hapi and other gods, there was a ritual aspect to all washing. Re nudity, paintings indicate that it was not taboo and so I would guess people undressed in order to wash – and were much less bashfull than we are.

By: Christine

Christine — Sun, 28 Feb 2010 01:01:04 +0000

Perhaps so? Do you believe bathing belonged to the secular or sacred realm? Do you mean naked in the sense of ‘unclothed’ or naked in the sense that an indigenous person may have minimal body coverage as a rule?[ http://alphabet-city.org/issues/water/articles/the-public-bath-and-the-city ]

By: Tom Turner

Tom Turner — Sat, 27 Feb 2010 13:51:28 +0000

My guess is that whatever bathing was done in Neolithic times took place naked and out of doors. Indoor bathing must then have been a luxury enjoyed first in palaces and later in public bath houses. I think the Romans discouraged mixed bathing (eg in the Baths of Caracalla) but that it none the less took place.

By: Christine

Christine — Sat, 27 Feb 2010 06:38:58 +0000

Should we consider the culture of indoor and outdoor bathing separately? Or do you believe their is some intrinsic connection? Michelle Facos writing in ‘Water, leisure and culture: European Historical Perspectives’ charts the rise in popularity of Bathing in Sweden during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries noting(p105);

“All varieties of bathing were practised – indoor and outdoor, customed and nude, hygenic and recreational.”

By: Tom Turner

Tom Turner — Tue, 23 Feb 2010 06:00:55 +0000

In Germany they would build some proper BBQ stands – with good litter bins nearby.
In Australia they would also supply butane gas to the BBQ stands with a meter to let you pay by the hour – with good litter bins nearby.
In the UK I doubt if health and safety is nearly as serious a problem as bad park managers. Most come from a horticultural background and lack either the design judgment or the people-management skills to run a park. It is like having a railway system run by the cleaning staff, or, British Airways might say, an airline run by its cabin staff.

By: Rachel

Rachel — Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:04:11 +0000

There are many people turn up and barbecue in my local park during the summer and no-one would mind if they took their rubbish away with them! Since so many didn’t the park became littered with yellow signs saying…no barbecues…no…and a very long list, I care not to remember.

You think we suffer with Health and Safety in parks compared to Germany, but what about schools. Our head thinks you need to pad the columns on a nursery canopy in case children run into them.

By: Tom Turner

Tom Turner — Fri, 19 Feb 2010 05:53:59 +0000

I think the German approach is sensible and liberal. People should be allowed to disrobe but should have the good manners not to do so near people who would be offended. The brave girl was, I believe, topless but not bottomless – which is another good compromise.