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	Comments on: 9/11 Memorial Landscape Architecture	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Johanne Abadie		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4239</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Johanne Abadie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2011 16:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7544#comment-4239</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Circle = Archetypal Shape for Heaven, eternity and the universe.
Square = Archetypal Shape for Earth, the finite and immediate realm.

Art History 101. Pantheon incorporates both visibly and invisibly in its design and is the most highly regarded example of these features that are exhibited in Western and Eastern philosophies, architectural and urban planning.

The 9/11 memorial is an urban feature that idolizes the symptomology of Rem Koolhaas&#039;s &quot;The Generic City&quot; theory; ironically in the middle of NYC. The initial act, the &#039;war&#039; and the monument are about identity.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Circle = Archetypal Shape for Heaven, eternity and the universe.<br />
Square = Archetypal Shape for Earth, the finite and immediate realm.</p>
<p>Art History 101. Pantheon incorporates both visibly and invisibly in its design and is the most highly regarded example of these features that are exhibited in Western and Eastern philosophies, architectural and urban planning.</p>
<p>The 9/11 memorial is an urban feature that idolizes the symptomology of Rem Koolhaas&#8217;s &#8220;The Generic City&#8221; theory; ironically in the middle of NYC. The initial act, the &#8216;war&#8217; and the monument are about identity.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4238</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Sep 2011 11:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7544#comment-4238</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4237&quot;&gt;Josef&lt;/a&gt;.

I watched a TV programme about a &lt;a href=&quot; http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/witness/2011/08/201183014191781744.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Staten Island dentist Simon Leventhal&lt;/a&gt;  whose hobby, for 30 years before 9/11, was photographing the Twin Towers. But on the actual day he was on vacation in California. In the most emotional part of the broadcast he explained his feelings about not being there on the day - and his personal shame at a voyeuristic wish that he had been there to photograph the disaster. The concept of voyeurism fits with a sexual and gendered analysis of the event.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4237">Josef</a>.</p>
<p>I watched a TV programme about a <a href=" http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/witness/2011/08/201183014191781744.html" rel="nofollow">Staten Island dentist Simon Leventhal</a>  whose hobby, for 30 years before 9/11, was photographing the Twin Towers. But on the actual day he was on vacation in California. In the most emotional part of the broadcast he explained his feelings about not being there on the day &#8211; and his personal shame at a voyeuristic wish that he had been there to photograph the disaster. The concept of voyeurism fits with a sexual and gendered analysis of the event.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Josef		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4237</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Josef]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7544#comment-4237</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Returning to the proposed memorial space I read the sunken pool (which from the photographs appears to descend into infinity) as a literal inversion of the previous structures inhabiting the site. It is as though the bold, aggressive and strident sentinels were sucked back into the ground. Much has been made of the phallic nature of skyscrapers (less perhaps of the homoerotic undertones of an airliner penetrating said skyscrapers)and the sunken garden has yonic (?) or womb-like connotations, which could be read as a compensation for the &quot;masculine&quot; act of destruction. Whilst one tends to think of this male-female/ yin-yang dynamic as something to do with eastern philosophy, I&#039;m personally reminded of the balancing between the pillar of severity and the pillar of mercy in the Kabbalah, which has subtly influenced the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Elaborating on this masculine-feminine dynamic it is worth contrasting the sudden violence of the twin towers as a spectacular event (watched by a global population, over in a few hours)with the subtlety of a garden (developing over many many years, appreciated at a very intimate level.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Returning to the proposed memorial space I read the sunken pool (which from the photographs appears to descend into infinity) as a literal inversion of the previous structures inhabiting the site. It is as though the bold, aggressive and strident sentinels were sucked back into the ground. Much has been made of the phallic nature of skyscrapers (less perhaps of the homoerotic undertones of an airliner penetrating said skyscrapers)and the sunken garden has yonic (?) or womb-like connotations, which could be read as a compensation for the &#8220;masculine&#8221; act of destruction. Whilst one tends to think of this male-female/ yin-yang dynamic as something to do with eastern philosophy, I&#8217;m personally reminded of the balancing between the pillar of severity and the pillar of mercy in the Kabbalah, which has subtly influenced the Judeo-Christian tradition.</p>
<p>Elaborating on this masculine-feminine dynamic it is worth contrasting the sudden violence of the twin towers as a spectacular event (watched by a global population, over in a few hours)with the subtlety of a garden (developing over many many years, appreciated at a very intimate level.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4236</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Sep 2011 08:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7544#comment-4236</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4235&quot;&gt;Christine&lt;/a&gt;.

Nice adaptation of Descartes.  I like the idea that a &#039;more-spiritual&#039; life, contrasts with a &#039;more-material&#039; life and is more a question of how one lives than of a metaphysical stance on doctrinal issues.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4235">Christine</a>.</p>
<p>Nice adaptation of Descartes.  I like the idea that a &#8216;more-spiritual&#8217; life, contrasts with a &#8216;more-material&#8217; life and is more a question of how one lives than of a metaphysical stance on doctrinal issues.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4235</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Sep 2011 05:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7544#comment-4235</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You are right Tom, the relationship between faith and reason is a challenge. Sometimes too much emphasis is given to faith, and we wonder what happened to reason - and sometimes too much emphasis is given to reason, and we wonder what happened to faith!

The better life as you say, must be partially a materially better life and partially a spiritually better life. Perhaps it is a balance between these two?

Perhaps they should have said of God, &#039;He thinks, therefore He is!&#039;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right Tom, the relationship between faith and reason is a challenge. Sometimes too much emphasis is given to faith, and we wonder what happened to reason &#8211; and sometimes too much emphasis is given to reason, and we wonder what happened to faith!</p>
<p>The better life as you say, must be partially a materially better life and partially a spiritually better life. Perhaps it is a balance between these two?</p>
<p>Perhaps they should have said of God, &#8216;He thinks, therefore He is!&#8217;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4234</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Sep 2011 04:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7544#comment-4234</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Christianity was greatly influenced by Greek philosophy and probably sees the circle and square as being equally close to heaven. It is interesting to note that Christianity modernised itself during the renaissance by adopting Greek philosophy but now seems to be suffering as a result. The attempt to use reason to prove the existence of God does not seem to have worked. In the longer term it might have been better for the church if it had rested on faith and belief, hoping people would experience the religious life as a better life than a non-religious life.
Re the Marsh Arabs, see today&#039;s comment on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/2011/09/16/a-landscape-memorial-to-saddam-husseins-victory-of-the-marsh-arabs-who-lived-in-the-garden-of-eden/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Victory Arch post&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christianity was greatly influenced by Greek philosophy and probably sees the circle and square as being equally close to heaven. It is interesting to note that Christianity modernised itself during the renaissance by adopting Greek philosophy but now seems to be suffering as a result. The attempt to use reason to prove the existence of God does not seem to have worked. In the longer term it might have been better for the church if it had rested on faith and belief, hoping people would experience the religious life as a better life than a non-religious life.<br />
Re the Marsh Arabs, see today&#8217;s comment on the <a href="http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/2011/09/16/a-landscape-memorial-to-saddam-husseins-victory-of-the-marsh-arabs-who-lived-in-the-garden-of-eden/" rel="nofollow">Victory Arch post</a>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Christine		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4233</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Sep 2011 01:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7544#comment-4233</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If the Vatican stairway to heaven is any guide the shape in the centre ought to be circular...[ http://www.flickr.com/photos/insiderperks/5260941874/ ]

However, if we are considering 1) the act 2) the victims of the act 3) the responses or reactions to the act by various parties (ie the people, the families, the government, other nations, the united nations) there are different aspects to consider which might require different symbolic representations.

Or perhaps the memorial is only concerned with the internal - the victims, the families, the people and the government? (Let us remember what happened).

It takes a considerable time for the events to crystallize so that their meaning in history can start to be appreciated.

Without fully understanding the context and events of Saddam and the Iraqi Marsh Arabs the proposal for Saddam&#039;s Victory Arch seems to be very appropriate: the landscape setting is very fragile and ephemeral and the Victory Arch in contrast is imposing and dominates its setting. It seems to mirror the events which took place.

Do you suppose the Marsh Arab&#039;s might approve of your proposal?
[ http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2011/04/pope-concedes-heaven-is-not-real-place.html ] It is interesting that archaeology might be able to locate Paradise afterall even if it is struggling a bit with Heaven!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the Vatican stairway to heaven is any guide the shape in the centre ought to be circular&#8230;[ <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/insiderperks/5260941874/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.flickr.com/photos/insiderperks/5260941874/</a> ]</p>
<p>However, if we are considering 1) the act 2) the victims of the act 3) the responses or reactions to the act by various parties (ie the people, the families, the government, other nations, the united nations) there are different aspects to consider which might require different symbolic representations.</p>
<p>Or perhaps the memorial is only concerned with the internal &#8211; the victims, the families, the people and the government? (Let us remember what happened).</p>
<p>It takes a considerable time for the events to crystallize so that their meaning in history can start to be appreciated.</p>
<p>Without fully understanding the context and events of Saddam and the Iraqi Marsh Arabs the proposal for Saddam&#8217;s Victory Arch seems to be very appropriate: the landscape setting is very fragile and ephemeral and the Victory Arch in contrast is imposing and dominates its setting. It seems to mirror the events which took place.</p>
<p>Do you suppose the Marsh Arab&#8217;s might approve of your proposal?<br />
[ <a href="http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2011/04/pope-concedes-heaven-is-not-real-place.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2011/04/pope-concedes-heaven-is-not-real-place.html</a> ] It is interesting that archaeology might be able to locate Paradise afterall even if it is struggling a bit with Heaven!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4232</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Sep 2011 14:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7544#comment-4232</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4231&quot;&gt;Mark&lt;/a&gt;.

Yes, the circle is a symbol of heaven in Indian and Chinese culture but not, I think, in Europe.
I agree entirely with your analysis of the monument as built. But you seem to be saying that the memorial is and should be a memento of what happened. This is a strong argument: &#039;let us remember what happened and leave the interpretation of the surrounding events to history&#039;. If this was the intention I think we should view it as a postmodern memorial: not political, not religious, not sentimental, not viewing the departed as heroes or victims or anything, unrelated to the War on Terror.  I like it.
What do you think of my proposal for &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/2011/09/16/a-landscape-memorial-to-saddam-husseins-victory-of-the-marsh-arabs-who-lived-in-the-garden-of-eden/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Saddam&#039;s Victory Arch&lt;/a&gt;?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4231">Mark</a>.</p>
<p>Yes, the circle is a symbol of heaven in Indian and Chinese culture but not, I think, in Europe.<br />
I agree entirely with your analysis of the monument as built. But you seem to be saying that the memorial is and should be a memento of what happened. This is a strong argument: &#8216;let us remember what happened and leave the interpretation of the surrounding events to history&#8217;. If this was the intention I think we should view it as a postmodern memorial: not political, not religious, not sentimental, not viewing the departed as heroes or victims or anything, unrelated to the War on Terror.  I like it.<br />
What do you think of my proposal for <a href="http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/2011/09/16/a-landscape-memorial-to-saddam-husseins-victory-of-the-marsh-arabs-who-lived-in-the-garden-of-eden/" rel="nofollow">Saddam&#8217;s Victory Arch</a>?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mark		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4231</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:16:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7544#comment-4231</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: Tom&#039;s initial initial piece remarks on the square shape of the memorials and platonic forms. Are not squares associated with earth and circles heaven?

 The squares  are the perfect historic reference to the (now mythical) towers. The reflected sky the place they once occupied and from which the attacks came.Everyone comments on the clear blue sky of that day. The water falling into the  reflection of the sky suggests an upward movement of the water, while we know it is being pulled back towards earth and into a (square) abyss. This sets up a great dynamic. 9/11 was all about the sky and falling. Buildings falling. People falling.

Icarus fell. America was caught with its pants down.The men with the box cutters outsmarted the men with the cruise missiles.

If the shape in the centre was circular, rather than square, would we get to heaven any quicker?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Tom&#8217;s initial initial piece remarks on the square shape of the memorials and platonic forms. Are not squares associated with earth and circles heaven?</p>
<p> The squares  are the perfect historic reference to the (now mythical) towers. The reflected sky the place they once occupied and from which the attacks came.Everyone comments on the clear blue sky of that day. The water falling into the  reflection of the sky suggests an upward movement of the water, while we know it is being pulled back towards earth and into a (square) abyss. This sets up a great dynamic. 9/11 was all about the sky and falling. Buildings falling. People falling.</p>
<p>Icarus fell. America was caught with its pants down.The men with the box cutters outsmarted the men with the cruise missiles.</p>
<p>If the shape in the centre was circular, rather than square, would we get to heaven any quicker?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Turner		</title>
		<link>https://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/911-memorial-landscape-architecture/#comment-4230</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Turner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Sep 2011 06:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/?p=7544#comment-4230</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I have attempted a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/2011/09/16/a-landscape-memorial-to-saddam-husseins-victory-of-the-marsh-arabs-who-lived-in-the-garden-of-eden/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;photomontage of Victory Arch + Marsh in Baghdad&lt;/a&gt; to &#039;flesh out&#039; the proposal.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have attempted a <a href="http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/2011/09/16/a-landscape-memorial-to-saddam-husseins-victory-of-the-marsh-arabs-who-lived-in-the-garden-of-eden/" rel="nofollow">photomontage of Victory Arch + Marsh in Baghdad</a> to &#8216;flesh out&#8217; the proposal.</p>
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