Londoners want to move from the City to the West Country

As this man walked past me I heard him bark into his mobile phone ‘I could pay the mortgate on a 5-bedroom farm in Devon for what I’m paying to rent in London’ (the photograph was taken outside the Temple Church, made famous by Dan Brown’s Da Vinci Code, in the Inns of Court). Joel Garreau, in Edge City: Life on the New Frontier, 1991, suggested that the South of England from Dover to Bristol is effectively one large Edge City. That city is pushing into the West Country, with steep increases in property prices. The internet allows skilled residents to particpate in the knowledge economy while enjoying a peaceful landscape. This was, of course, Ebenezer Howard’s Garden City dream. Is the country made more or less sustainable when knowledge workers move out of London?

With broadband, the Devon countryside can become TOWN-COUNTRY

36 thoughts on “Londoners want to move from the City to the West Country

  1. Christine

    My friend had the best of both worlds, a house in London and a weekend house outside Bath. But I suppose it is sometimes necessary to choice one or the other: town or country. Or is town-country a like having a London house and a house outside Bath but without the commute, upkeep of two homes, need to shop twice etc?

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      This is the old way: a place in the country for summer and a place in the town for winter. I wonder if it is a Baroque idea borrowed from France. The Medieval way, for the rich, was to always on the move between manor houses, castles etc. The poor never left their villages except in time of war. Today, I sometimes have the impression that the British are vacating London. It is becoming a city for tourists, temporary migrants and immigrants. As the man in the above photo remarks, it is much less necessary to live here than it once was (ie to have a high-paying job). So why do it?

  2. Christine

    Hopefully London is still a city worth living in!

    So would a tourist have to go to the countryside to experience ‘local’ life? If so, the country will soon be full of tourists looking for an authentic British experience!

    Reminds me of waiting for the cruise ship to leave Port Vila so that local life and prices returned to normal and not a staged ‘tourist’ experience.

  3. Jerry

    Working in central London and living in county, which is a very good idea!I also have been thinking about Howard’ idea about garden cities while I am doing my long travelling. I think it should have enough reasons to build more effective transport, especially in developing countries.

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      Jerry, how long is your travel? I have heard of people commuting to jobs in London from the whole of South East England, not to mention millionaires commuting from Monaco etc because they like the warm climate and freedom from taxation. I am lucky to be able to travel to work by ‘green power’ (ie sweat) and I think this is more enjoyable than fossil fuel commuting.

  4. Christine

    By nature I am a city person who goes to the country for recreation. I love cities – of all different varieties: garden cities [ ] and edge cities [ ] see also [ ]

    I like my cities to have different personalities. Paris is one of my favourites for its chic and elegance. [ ] Although Paris is also an edge city, it couldn’t be more different from New York.

    Tokyo is a city I have wanted to visit for some time. In the 1960s it was called a traditional consumption city, in contrast to an industrial city. (The two types of cities said to predominant in Japan and support each other). The industrial cities were financial centres.
    [ ]

    In NSW for example a good country/city mix for a city person would be to live in the Hunter Valley and work in Sydney or to live on the Central Coast and to work in Sydney.

    Andrew John all things equal would live on his own island! [ ]

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      The aerial view of Canberra made me think of New Delhi. It is interesting that both plans were drawn up in 1911. Did one of the designers know of the other’s work? And did Aston Webb’s design for the Mall in London draw from these ideas? Design history is very interesting.
      I very much agree that cities should have different characters and regard the idea of an International Style of city planning as hateful.
      I regard myself as a country person – but prefer living in a city, so that’s a problem.
      Though in agreement with Andrew John’s predictions, I doubt if they will dent the popularity of cities. My experience of living in the country is that it is wonderful for a while but becomes boring in a way that advanced telecommunications are unlikely to relieve.

  5. christine

    Tom, I always thought I would like to have a stud farm and breed train Melbourne Cup winners [ ]. (This is the country person in me, but it would be a property managed and run by others although I would definitely be there around Cup time, however, I haven’t made the requisite millions yet.)

    I could happily spend time in the country/outback as many childhood vacations were spent with grandparents in the country.

    Why, as a country person do you prefer living in the city and find country living boring after a while? How does it become a problem?

    The only aspect of Canberra I could see in common with New Dehli is the siting of the Taj Mahal?
    [ ] I have read much of Walter Burley Griffin’s work, so far without reading any reference to New Dehli.
    He did work in India just shortly before he died. He also became aware while at university of Wren’s plans for the reconstruction of London. Most of his research was into French and German townplanning theoretical sources.

    This is an interesting statement that says something of the genesis of the ideas for Canberra:

    “In 1892, he worked out, also in the fly­leaf of his school book, a scheme of town planning, which was afterwards incorporated in the plan of Canberra.”

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      You are right: there is no reason to think there was any cross-influence between the 1911 plans for New Delhi and Canberra. But it is interesting that they were done in the same year and there is every reason to look for what geneticists call a most recent common ancestor (MRCA). One would need to include the World’s Columbian Exhibition of 1893 (by Burnham, Olmsted and others), L’Enfant’s 1791 plan for Washington DC and of course the whole sequence of Baroque garden design. Thomas Mawson’s Civic Art was published in 1911. Though brought up on the Arts and Crafts Movement, like Lutyens, he was leaning to towards the Neo-Baroque by 1911 – I think this is a better term than Beaux Arts for the tendency. Nations were re-flexing their nationalistic tendencies and the Baroque, as ever, was a symbol of power. It is a little surprising to find this in Australia but Giffen had not been educated in Australia.
      Getting back to horses, I think it would be a great idea to use surviving avenues in Baroque-planned cities for horse-events and I think it would be even greater if avenues with horse rides could be projected into the green belt. They should include a bridleway in the Grand Axis of Paris!

  6. Grant

    Good to see the Garden City illustration again. Just reminds me that often some basics get forgotten and thus are always worth looking at again. eg my old fave Holly Whyte and placemaking.

    Though I am guilty of using utopian rose-tinted glasses, its nice to dream.

    But as Milliburn said yesterday, its about those who actually contribute to society rather than those who asset strip (who are also buying up the 5 bedroom houses in Devon, putting prices beyond the reach of local workers) and destroy for short term selfish gain. Correct me if I am wrong, Tom/Christine, but the Garden City idea was born out of providing decent living quarters for those in the social renting sector (newly created to stop greedy landlords abusing the poor)?
    Seems like we are going full circle with the buy-to-let schemes and the Cameron 75% of market rent for social housing with a restricted period of stay. Thus not a home. Its all so wrong.

    Rant over, just finding it hard to believe that we have been robbed and and are now bailing out the thieves..

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      Ebenezer Howard’s idea was about low-cost home ownership (the £100 house) more than about renting. He was certainly against greedy landlords but there was no social security at the time he wrote and so there was no prospect of having a house unless you had a job. The possibility of households, with central heating and with numerous eletroncic gadgets, and in which nobody had worked for 3 generations, would have seemed less of a likeliehood than space travel! I remember shock headlines in the papers (c1960) when there were Half A Million Unemployed in the UK. We now have 2,500,000 unemployed and I can imagine everyone being thrilled if the figure fell to 2m.

  7. Christine

    Griffin, who worked in Frank Lloyd Wright’s office, was more closely associated with the Praire School in architecture, than with the Baroque.

    As an individual he was forward looking and dreamed of planning a city which promoted the potential for each person to flourish. The ‘healthy’ aspects of country living and escape from congestion and overcrowding of vertical cities were elements that influenced his planning. Canberra was to be a horizontal city.

    Yes. I have always admired the opportunites that exist in London to ride. [ ] So yes all, horse riding on avenues and in green belts (where appropriate) would be a great boon. Possibly not on the Champs Elysee[ ] and [ ] or in the wilderness or environmentally sensitive areas [ ].

    There is considerable debate about the presence of wild horses (brumbies) in The Snowy Mountains, however the horses and stockman are an iconic part of the areas history. There are books [ ], films, [ ] and poems which record this aspect of iconic Australian identity. [ ]

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      I think the Baroque often gets a bad press. It is too much associated with Absolutism and the Counter-Reformation, which deserve a bad press. The Baroque was about creating a stable and secure society in which people could enjoy the pleasures of the town and the pleasures of the country. Avenues have an ancient history (at least 5000 years) and need not be associated with the Baroque. The Champs Elysee is the greatest avenue in the world, bar none, and should be closed to motor vehicles every Sunday, like the Mall in London. I like the Snowy Mountain pics but country dwellers should not have all the fun. Cities need to be great places for recreation and great places for animals.

  8. Christine

    Re: Reducing unemployment, it is necessary for the work to be productive (create value) in order to stimulate the economy and increase economic opportunities. Certainly, setting higher goals for standards of living and being creative but realistic about how they might be achieved is important. Developed countries need to pay greater attention to trading deficits and national debt.

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      But what types of ‘value’ would you include: financial, ecological, aesthetic, social? I would include them all. A wealthy society can afford to have no beggars, but I think every recipient of ‘taxpayers money’ should do something in return for the money they receive. I do not like the idea of giving people money which enables them to live without contributing any value to society. The devil makes work for idle hands.

  9. Christine

    Not being an economist these are only speculative opinions:

    There is a sense in which Capitalism as it is currently practiced promotes a race to the bottom.[ ] If the theory is that there should be a proportion of the population without work, it is hardly fair to blame them for not working. Full employment (on a living wage as a minimum) should be the minimum goal of a just society. A philosophy of full living wage employment would reduce expenditure on social security.

    Every role in society has its appropriate value.

    It would be unfortuneate if people chose their surgeon on the lowest possible cost and the surgeon treated people on the basis of the maximum possible profit. In medicine the value should be the maximum possible quality of health provided to the maximum possible number of people in the most economically efficient manner possible.

    Each nation has a responsiblity first to the welfare of its own citizens and secondly to the good of the community of nations.

    So when we are speaking of values which stimulate economic growth (to reduce trading deficits and national debt), we are talking about roles that fundamentally have an economic outcome which create trade deficits and increase national debt.
    [ ]

    Certainly becoming more self-sufficient in food may be an area in which the trade deficit might be decreased. Medicine [ ] and automotive and aeronautical skills are traditonal areas of strength. Potentially the UK could be at the forefront of luxury green car technology [ ] and innovation in the aeoronautical industry (Sir Richard Branson could lead in promoting this.)

    Professions, even when they are organised as businesses, are not pure businesses they have a public role.

    UK medical expertise has had such a high reputation that many specialists go there during their training to gain skills which then benefit their practice in their home countries. This is positive for both the UK and the countries which benefit from the skills acquired.

    A society should have high social ideals. Sometimes it is valuable to raise awareness of why people experience misfortune to promote empathy and compassion.
    [ ]

    Rather than blaming social security recipients etc it would be more useful to ask what is the unemployment profile of the UK and what is meant by this statement?

    “When the Government runs up huge debts and produces nothing to show for it,…”(Is it really about bribing voters)…” or something else? [ ]

    Telecommuting should potentially be able to reduce regional unemployment if this is a part of the current unemployment profile and distance from employment centres is the critical factor.
    [ ]

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      I believe the term ‘capitalism’, as well as much of the theory, derive from Karl Marx and that he cannot be regarded as a supporter of the idea.
      I agree that it suits employers to a group of unemployed hungry workers who can bid down wages. This applies to employers in the professions as well as to industrial employers. There is a big increase in the ‘internship’ system which involves paying people little or nothing for ‘work experience’.
      But none of this detracts from the principle that, for people who cannot find paid jobs in the capitalist sector, it is better to pay them for doing something than to pay them for doing nothing. This creates more value for the individual and more value for society. The ‘value’ may not be saleable but it is still value. I apply this principle to myself. Society intends (at this point!) to supply me with a stream of goods and services for the rest of my life but I think it is better for me and better for society if I continue being a producer as well as a consumer for as long as I can. So I do not see it as a question of blaming social security recipients for anything: it is creating jobs for them which society will value, instead of casting them a few crusts with the message ‘this shows how much we pity you’.

  10. Christine

    Perhaps the question of increasing food self-sufficiency might be a good area for International Landscape Competiton Consultants to produce their first competition brief?

    The first question for ILCC would be project funding? [ ]

  11. Christine

    More opinion:

    I wonder what the shift in thinking was that started to devalue people and create increases in unpaid or low paid work experience? If it is a matter of acquiring very basic skills at entry level for students on university vacation this seems fine.

    Agreed it is better for people who can’t find work to be doing something. And you are right – considering unemployed people in a similar way to retirees would be more just. Yes, they probably need activities to occupy themselves while they look for work, much as most people benefit from activities on holidays.

    My preference would be to seek to develop their potential(through identifying their interests) and providing pathways in the same way as a caring parent and school system usually does for its students. It is a great shame when the choice is merely work for works sake…because there are many ways to earn a crust…the best way should best suit the talent and interests and stage of development of the person.

    It would be awful to think just before surgery that your surgeon really should have been an economist and the economist with responsibility for the national debt should have been a surgeon!

    Doesn’t everyone deserve a good start in life or a good re-start in life?

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      In thinking about what people ‘deserve’ my thoughts go to Thomas Hobbes account of the state of nature in which life is “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short”. He therefore recommended a ‘social contract‘ and the elements of a contract are mutual assent and consideration. This places duties upon both parties to the contract. I am also against the idea of retirees becoming drones – it is a boring, unhealthy and unhappy state of affairs. My granny lived (with good health, material comfort and a live-in maid) to the age of 99. She used to snap ‘There is no point at all in living after the age of 70 – you are no use anymore’. As a younger person, it must be terrible to think that one is of no ‘use’ to society.

  12. Christine

    Somehow I believe in the inherent dignity of human life. So there is no-one who is of no ‘use’ to society – each person is part of society. It is a question of how we treat each other, and how we learn to ‘be’ ourselves.

    One of my favourite stories is of Sorrel Wilby. This precis says something of who she is now, [ ] but not how she got there.

    She was a lawyer working in an office environment in Sydney…then [ ] Somewhere in this journey she met and married her husband.

    The lesson is…don’t try to become Sorrel, become yourself. [ ] She saved a life. [ ]

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      I agree that everyone can and should have a place in society. But I think it is discouraging and disrespectful to, effectively, say to someone ‘we don’t expect you to do anything and we can’t think of anything you could do – so we will just give you some money and ask you to keep out of trouble’. Is there something of this attitude in the treatment, and consequent feelings, of Indigenous Australians? I don’t think I have met one of their number but I have read sad stories about them (inc the statistic that the imprisonment rate is 14 times higher than that of non-Indigenous people).

  13. Christine

    A bit short of time so to begin to explain the situation. The high imprisonment rates are not necessarily related to lack of employment, but rather to harsh penal laws and sometimes to a lack of cultural recognition (ie of indigenous languages, the use of aboriginal english and of indigenous manners based on custom and taboo).

    To understand the employment situation it is necessary to trace the history of colonial contact when the idea of work (as we conceive it) impacted on the indigenous customary structure.

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      I find it easier to understand the disruption caused by the arrival of Europeans than to understand the present situation. Perhaps it is needs to be understood in several contexts (1) the worldwide context of primitive peoples adapting to modern civilizations (2) the particular problems caused by discriminatory (racist) legislation and policing (3) the paradoxical context, raised by the above blog post, that Europeans have been idealizing the delights of simple rural living at least since the renaissance.

  14. Christine

    The situation seems to be a little more complex than (1) the situation in Bhutan where the transition is from a feudal society to a democracy [ ](2) the situation for the Romany in Europe [ ] and (3) ideals of rural living in Europe [ ].

    Perhaps this scenario doesn’t do the situation justice either but:

    Yes, it would be a bit like going home tonight and finding a Spanish family had moved in and they expected you to suddenly live in one room, fit in with their rules and speak Spanish…and there is no one to appeal to but King Carlos.

    If you were to make a petition, it has to be in Spanish and state your objections according to Spanish law, (which by the way doesn’t recognise you have prior rights but is prepared to tolerate you as long as you don’t make a fuss or unduly interrupt the family’s lifestyle).

    For a while they will let you do as you like freely in your garden…but, bit by bit they will start to establish a place for grilling Catalan sausage, drinking Sanguia and dancing the Flamenco in the evenings. They then think you could be useful afterall if you play the guitar or violin?

    Oh, and maybe you could plant some pomegranates, carnations and blue bells in the garden? (They do admire your roses.) If so they could spare you a few Euro (pounds are not acceptable currency). They would also like you to adopt the dress of the vaqueros, attend Sunday mass and they have decided James (after St James the greater) is a more suitable name to call you than Tom (afterall wasn’t he the one with doubts?)

    I wonder how you would be feeling by the time the family’s children Maria, Jose and Santiago have grown up and finished university (fashion, merchant banking and agriculture) and the family are thinking of renting out the house to their cousins?

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      Thank you for the analogy. It helps me understand the situation while also reminding me of (1) the treatment of Jewish and Christian minorities in Turkey, since the 1930s (2) the treatment of the the Palestinians in Israel since 1948 (3) the treatment of the other minorities in many other countries – in fact the Flemish population of Brussels is not without grudges. Some minorities yield to the oppression and ‘go under’. Other minorities seem to resist the oppression and, in some respects, flourish. I do not think one can regard the unemployed as a minority in quite this sense but there are many ‘laws for the rich’ which weigh against them. For example, in the UK there are planning laws which prevent poor people from buying land at agricultural prices and using it to build dwellings and start businesses. (I support these laws but regret their consequences).

  15. christine

    Indigenous people’s situation are different to other minority groups.

    Although relative minority status may affect the degree of recognition their culture is accorded. The moari are 11-12% of New Zealand’s total population.
    [ ]

    In the examples you give Jewish and Christian Turks make up less than 0.2% of the population, Palestinians in Israel are approximately 20% of the population and the Flemish comprise a majority at 60% of Belgium’s population.

    To illustrate that minority status is not the critical factor consider yourself as a minority in Spain:

    The Alvarez family may have invited you to stay with them after meeting you at a restuarant in Barcelonia while you were on vacation. If they gave you a room in their home, taught you to speak Spanish, included you in their evening ritual of grilling Catalan sausage, drinking Sanguia and dancing Flamenco in the evenings and Jose gave you guitar and violin lessons, you would probably be feeling quite friendly towards your Spanish hosts.

    If Santiago introduced you to the delights of breeding Spanish flowers (in particular pomegranates, carnations and blue bells) and paid you in Euro for being a judge at the Festival of Flowers, strange as you might feel in dress of the vaqueros you would probably agree to don national costume for the event.

    When Maria’s wedding was held after she graduated from Bau you would probably also be delighted that she chose La Sagrada Familia for the ceremony. (And even more astonished when her novio asked you to be padrino de boda.) But afterall you reason, you had watched Maria grow up from age five! (They are also thinking of calling their first boy Tomas after you).

    The Alvez parents are now over sixty seven and considering retiring to Costa de la Luz and ask if you would like to rent the house?

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      Thank you for the extended story! I am really getting a feel for what it would have been like to have been a resident of (1) Granada when the Moors arrived (2) Barcelona when Castillian became the official language (3) Britannia when the Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danes or Normans arrived (4) Ireland when the English arrived (5) Constantinople, as the great capital of Greek civilization, when it fell to the Turks in 1453 (6) Beijing when it fell to the Manchurians in 1644 (7) India when the Aryans arrived. Wouldn’t you say that each of these was an example of indigenous people being militarily, culturally, and often linguistically, overcome by foreigners?

  16. Christine

    The situation of indigenous peoples is also a little different from (1) Granada when the Moors arrived because before them had been the Greeks, Romans, Visigoths and the Byzantinians. (2) Barcelona when Castillian Spanish became the official language under Franco during the Spanish civil war, (3) Around the 4th century AD St Patrick’s father was said to have been a Briton and a provincial governor under Roman rule, (4) The Norman invasion of Ireland began in 1169, (5) The city of Constantinople was besieged by Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II from the 5th April to the 27th May, (6) The Manchurians established the Qing Dynasty and (7)It is speculated that the Dravidians were overthrown by the Aryans in India.

    Not all of the cultures listed are undisputedly indigenous cultures.

    A few facts:
    (1) Granada was an Ibero-Celtic settlement which the Greeks were first to colonize.
    (2) Legend attributes the founding of the city of Barcelona to the Greek hero Hercules, however the name has Iberian origins.
    (3) The Roman campaign to conquer Briton was gradual and all subsequent invasions and rules were fairly sporadic until the Norman conquest in 1066.
    (4) The Norman invasion of Ireland was at the request of Dermot MacMurrough (Diarmait Mac Murchada), the ousted King of Leinster, who sought their help in regaining his kingdom.
    (5) The city of Constantinople was renamed Istanbul.
    (6) The Qing Empire was forced to cede Manchuria north of the Amur to Russia under the Treaty of Aigun.
    (7) Evidence for a prior Dravidian culture is said to be evidenced by the large urban ruins of what has been called the “Indus valley culture”.

    It seems some arrivals have more or less hallmarks of a military campaign and are carried out with greater or lesser assent of the legitimate ruler. Long campaigns to prevent foreign invasions seem to leave material evidence of seacoast(ie. St Bruno’s Fort in Lisbon) or boundary fortifications (ie. Hadrians Wall).

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      Thank you for all the facts. In Europe there have been so many population flows that the idea of ‘indigenous’ is hardly a useful term – at least not in comparison with Australia.
      Perhaps we should widen the discussion further and think about what was long thought to be the extinction of Neanderthal man. Genetics indicates that inter-breeding took place but on the whole it seems that, as in the evolution of all species, a more evolved species led to the extinction of less evolved species, because stronger bodies and stronger brains create a competitive advantage. Setting morality to one side, it is within the bounds of possibility that this is what is happening to the indigenous people of Australia and to less-skilled people in developed countries.

  17. Christine

    No. Unless your Spanish family can consider you as less evolved (because of your lack of violin and guitar skills). Or are you looking for a Spanish bride? (Perhaps they might ask you to participate in the one of the last of the bullfights in Spain to determine your suitability for marriage.) There is a pretty girl called Catherine they are considering introducing to you. Would you like them to send you a picture of her (it is by a very skilled miniature painter)?

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      I have not been to Spain for a while and your story is attracting me to the idea!
      Europe’s population is becoming very mixed very quickly (as is Australia’s) and the experience of adjusting to other language and cultures is taking place everywhere. From an evolutionary point of view it is likely to produce ‘hybrid vigour’ and to decrease the incidence of inherited diseases.
      I am not sure how biologists define a species but do know that many animal species are becoming extinct It is hard to know what line humans should take on this issue. I am horrified by the current rate of extinction and, like many people of my age, would rather the world stayed as it was than continued to change – except of course for its many bad aspects which most certainly need to change.
      A curious aspect of the Turkish invasion of Iran (and most invasions of China) is that the invaders became ultra-enthusiastic adopters of the cultures of the countries they conquered – as indeed happened with the Norman invasion of France.

  18. christine

    Indigenous communities in Australia have a very sophisticated system of relationships under customary law to determine who could marry who so as to prevent genetic diseases.

    It has been thought that Indigenous Australian came to ‘Sahul’ (the single Pleistocene landmass encompassing Australia, New Guinea, and Tasmania)via New Guinea 50,000 years ago. [ ] It is now believed that they diversified genetically from the other group of people inhabiting the earth 80,000 years ago.

    Yet the evidence of Dreaming sites seems to suggest that indigenous peoples were in Australia the seas were higher than they are currently, which if the Sahul timeline is correct, must be some time prior to 100,000 years. So…

    The Turkish invasion of Iran is very complex for someone not familiar with the shifting territories and dynasties of central asia and the middle east. But under Toghril Beg’s successor it seems Iran enjoyed a cultural and scientific renaissance. And yes the French province of Normandy takes its name from the first norman (Norse man) invasion of France in the eighth century ending the Frankish Carolingian Empire. The invading vikings burnt the Abbey of Fontenelle, and the monks also lost archives and libraries in the invasion.

    So, invasions can lead to both a increase and a loss of knowledge. I wonder does that mean some invasions are advantageous and others disadvantageous for humanity?

    1. Tom Turner Post author

      I think you are right about ‘good’ and ‘bad’ invasions. The Mongol invasion of Iran was definitely bad but the Roman and Norman invasions of Britain seem to have done more good than harm. But how can we judge? I remember a friend commenting that the Spanish invasion of South America is generally regarded as a wicked crime and a disaster – but the civilization they destroyed was cruel, blood-thirsty and a planetry blight.

  19. Christine

    There are two elements here 1) a judgment that a civilisation is cruel, blood-thirsty and a planetary blight and 2) a response that the only way to respond to the civilisation is to invade and destroy it.

    I think that 1) would be easier to prove than 2). Perhaps by analysing historical instances it might be possible to refine this hypothesis?


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