Why should the landscape of Chinese cities be designed like Baroque gardens?
Why build Chinese cities like Baroque gardens?
It is said that the Baroque style of planting design originated in France, and was for show. A ‘Cartesian’ geometry was used to create avenues, canals and parterres. The master plans of Baroque Garden had outspreading geometric forms. It was a western aesthetic which respected geometry as the principle of beauty. Nowadays, Baroque-style planting is an uncommon approach in landscape settings in western cities. Chinese cities, however, have an increasing number of Baroque parterres, especially the main streetscapes of big cities. It is said that ‘The Baroque was the style of the Roman Catholic church during the Counter Reformation’ . And Hilaire Belloc said:
“Wherever the Catholic sun does shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!”
— Hilaire Belloc
The above photo was taken on JinBin Road, Tianjin, China, which is a main road. The huge parterre is set in the middle of the road. But the bilateral pathway for pedestrian crossing does not have even one single tree.
You make a very intersting point. In the Axial Age (800 BCE to 200 ) socio-economic circumstances appear to have encouraged great thinking (by Confucius, Plato, Buddha etc) even though the socieities were not in contact with each other. Simmilarly, in the Baroque Age, the level of contact between France and China was irrelevant but socio-economic circumstances led to imposing layouts with long straight avenues in both Paris and Beijing. French and Chinese emperors wanted to ‘advertise’ the power of their states. They used aesthetic power to reinforce political power.
But why is a Baroque planting idea still being used in China? The only explanation I can think of is that the the designers wish to proclaim, as in the Baroque Age, that the state is an all-powerful organisation which provides both social order and aesthetic order – but not ecological order. Baroque style parterres, as at Versailles, were also a demonstration of the King’s great wealth. I would like to know how much the parterre-style planting in China costs to maintain. It looks expensive and anti-ecological to me. Is all the maintenance work done by hand, or do they use hydrocarbons, water and fertilisers in the maintenance operations? Baroque planting cannot be good for wildlife or biodiversity or sustainable urban drainage. Nor is it practical: if the plants were taller they would stop drivers in opposite directions from dazzling each other with their car headlights. So I think the city authorities should rip out the parterre planting in the photograph and replace it with habitat creation planting. Then they should employ landscape architects to prepare planting strategies for Chinese cities. Just a laowai 老外 view!
PS: I there laughter and good red wine in China?
Comment by Tom Turner — December 26, 2010 @ 6:52 am
Is anyone giving thought to the culture of China and what kind of urban gardens would reflect the heritage of that country? Looking at the photo supplied by the author of this posting, I am impressed at the amount of color that is found in this median-strip garden. How many other countries pay so much attention to the importance of color? Also, does the culture of that country demand a baroque style garden treatment simply because that style is mathematically pleasing?
Given the rapidity with which China has evolved from an agrarian third world country into an industrial giant, one should expect that it will take a while longer for contemporary western values about ecological urban gardening to influence the design of public gardens in China’s cities. For the time being, I am delighted to enjoy the mathematical precision that defines China’s urban gardens and I am puzzled why others do not share my enthusiasm.
Comment by allanbecker-gardenguru — December 26, 2010 @ 2:26 pm
Re Tom,Thank you for your comment. As I know that this parterre is looked after by gardeners. Their main jobs includes triming shrubs, removing weeds ,spraying drug and potting where the furrow-irrigation machine cannot achieve.
Ps: We do have good red wine, and the most famous wine factory”Dynasty” is in Tianjin.
Comment by Tian Yuan — December 26, 2010 @ 3:34 pm
This is interesting, I have just been looking at a series of staellite photos of ‘ghost’ cities and developments in China. Aside from the intriguing fact that there are so many massive and uninhabited housing and office developments, I was also intrigued to note that a couple are laid out in plans I would normally associate with Baroque gardens. This one in particular http://www.businessinsider.com/pictures-chinese-ghost-cities-2010-12#its-a-giant-new-development-which-doesnt-even-have-a-name-yet-13
Comment by Kat — December 27, 2010 @ 12:35 am
Re Kat, Yes. the link does show a “ghost” city in China.I think the reason will be:
(1) The rapid development of China need more landscape architects, however, this subject used not to be a popular subject in China and has a relatively low quality of education.
(2)Clients may not have high-taste in art, design, landscape architecture and planning. Then, landscape architects and palnners do not have opportunity to build good landscape projects.
(3)The habit is: be crazy about foreign things and obsequious to foreigners.
Comment by Tian Yuan — December 28, 2010 @ 4:28 am
I have a question about this topic, why we can’t use the Baroque style of planting design in China? It is just one of the typical styles. In fact, Baroque planting style in China is a bit different from the original ‘French Baroque’. It seems much more simple and sometimes suitable for some rapid developing cities.
My view is we could use this style in some design projects if it has much more advantages than others or we could find some compromised way.
In China,most of the maintenance work is done by hand. Comparing with the price of mature trees, the manual fee of maintenance is much cheaper. Because most of the ‘Baroeue patterns’is not complicated, so gardeners just do the basic maintenances and they didn’t get any high-level training.
I agree that it is not ecological way as a city landscape, but if there is a limited budget, using different shrubs instead of the mature trees for the streetscape project is a more practical approach in some China cities. One reason is mature trees are much more expensive than the normal shrubs. Aesthetic order is another reason, sometimes we think ‘Baroque style’ is a ‘Modern style’ or a style from foreign countries. Moreover, it will take more than ten years for the trees growing. Local government prefers see the effects of plants in the short period.
Most of the city authorities don’t know what the meaning of ecology is. They focus on the economic development and they believed that the job of landscape architects is making the cities much more pretty.
I think landscape architects should talk to city authorities and let the public know the importance of the ecology. Maybe one day they will employ landscape architects to prepare planting strategies for Chinese cities.
Comment by Mei — December 29, 2010 @ 12:42 am
Thank you Mei.
Re the question: It is certain that Baroque style can be involved in landscape design project,in particular,Garden design Project.Similarly, it is like that Chinese style was popular in 17 and 18 century and the western country began to put Chinese style architecture and landscape in their city. For example, The Pagoda in Kew Garden. My view will be
(1) When Baroque style plays a role as art and design style, it probably can be used, but if the cities are planned as Baroque Garden without thinking other landscape elements(ie ecology effection, human need…) Baroque Style will be a “ghost” idea for Chinese city development.
(2)Baroque style may not be ” fast landscape” as “Mc Donald and KFC” to suit for Chinese quick development.
Comment by Tian Yuan — December 29, 2010 @ 11:02 am
I absolutely loved this design.
I don’t see the need to create a wildlife habitat in a central reservation.
It is large and broadscale and will be easy to look after.
The style does not really seem baroque given its lack of fuss.
It will be visually fabulous from the tower blocks around.
Seems completely appropriate to me!
Best Wishes
Robert
Comment by Robert Webber — December 30, 2010 @ 10:41 am
My thoughts about the design are (1) it is generally better for designers to look forwards than to look backwards, unless there is a particular reason for looking backwards (2) garden-type planting (as in the photograph) is better suited to gardens (ie enclosed places designed for pleasure) than to urban landscape design (3) I am sorry that the human species is having such a devastating impact on all the other species – so I think we should find space for wild fauna and flora in the cities we make. This is best done in the form of ‘biological corridors’. The central reservation in the photograph seems very well suited to this use – so why use it for ornamental planting? (4) since the Baroque style must always be associated with authoritarian political systems it is right to ask: ‘Is this what the designers intended?’ (5) I agree that the pattern and the colours are pleasant enough (6) of course China can have as many Baroque gardens as it wishes – just as England has Japanese, Italian, French, Egyptian, Swiss etc gardens.
Comment by Tom Turner — December 30, 2010 @ 3:55 pm
I am intersted in the Ghost Cities China is building (ie the cities of almost un-occupied residential and commercial buildings which are being built mainly to make money for property developers and speculators). This is a gigantic property bubble and it must be expected to go POP BANG BOOM, like the much smaller European and American property bubbles. Nobody knows when this will happen and there is one great difference: the Irish etc borrowed money to build their Ghost Towns. The Chinese are using personal savings to build their Ghost Tows. What this probably means is that the speculators will not go bankrupt, as the Irish and Spanish developers are doing, but they will surely stop building when prices start falling, as they must, and this will cause a significant disruption for the Chinese economy. Market economies always have booms and busts. The historic ratio between house prices and average incomes in the UK was 1:3, though it reached 1:10 in the recent boom. The 2010 ratio in Beijing was 1:20, so that one would have to use 100% of one’s income for 20 years to accumulate the money to buy an apartment.
What does this mean for China’s landscape architects? It means they should develop expertise in landscape planning and urban design as quickly as possible – so that there is alternative work when the biggest property bubble the world has ever seen turns into the biggest property bust the world has ever seen.
Comment by Tom Turner — December 30, 2010 @ 4:11 pm
I am interst in discussing the relationship between landscape planning and Economy and I agree with you. But I am not quite sure landscape architects could take this heavy responsibility.Sometime, Chinese single-party system make a very “persuasible” society. The most powerful people may be the govenment, not landscpae architects. I have attended a project presentation to a Civil Square in Qianan, Hebei Province, China. It is interesting that the mayor only gave us 5 minites then he decided how to go ahead with this project,which means landscape experts must listen to mayor to design, which is like a tragedy. But I always have a positive hope, if one day a landscape architecture student could be the major in Chinese cities, all the problems will be sorted out.(!)
Comment by Tian Yuan — January 3, 2011 @ 2:04 pm
Robert Webber’s comments are most appropriate, as are the gardens in the photo.
The discussion about Baroque style landscaping and its political implications appears to be more academic and philosophical. Such intellectual exchanges occur in western cities, as well, where there is always much criticism from the idealists, whenever government or industry undertakes massive projects that visually impact the lives of the citizens.
One should be grateful that a centralized government has given thought to introducing landscape of any kind into the medians of its urban roadways. Giving peoples’ eyes a botanical rest from urban and industrial architecture is a gift that ought to be to be appreciated for the benefits it brings the populace, regardless of it style or inspiration.
Comment by allanbecker-gardenguru — January 3, 2011 @ 3:25 pm
Yes, I agree with you about “much criticism from idealists”, but it may be because of the meaning of “critivism”:Criticism is the judgement of the merits and faults of the work or actions of an individual or group by another (the critic). To criticize does not necessarily imply to find fault, but the word is often taken to mean the simple expression of an objection against prejudice, or a disapproval.
Comment by Tian Yuan — January 3, 2011 @ 5:00 pm
Interesting discussion. I was intrigued to see the parterres in the median strips of the Chinese city of Tianjin. They reminded me also of the abstract pavement designs in Brazil by Burle Marx. In this way they could be consider other than Baroque in form and style, but rather a peculiarly Chinese appropriation of Baroque planting techniques.
Like Tom I am for ecology. But looking at the twelve lane carriageway I can’t help thinking you would need the speed of a ‘roadrunner’ [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJJW7EF5aVk ]…(also as I am sympathetic with Tian’s point about trees and pedestrians)….or be a particularly noisy and hardy species of bird to find the main road of Tianjin an attractive habitat.
Although, Tian may have some suggestions for appropriate wildlife species? [ http://www.ifce.org/endanger.html ]
I wonder also how well this road functions as the main road of the city? In any Western city I believe a 12 lane road would be diverted around the city (as a ring road) rather than go straight through it! So this is a particularly Chinese way of doing things also which may promote unique urban patterns and forms of urban life?
Rapid development? Hong Kong from 1904 is unrecognisable as the same city [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD4EJ-jasFg&NR=1 ] in 2010 [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiXhCJrasdI&feature=related ].
Comment by Christine — January 4, 2011 @ 3:38 am
Thank you Christine. I also found it very interesting to discuss this topic here.
About the wild species,my recommendation will be “Frog Ponds” Here is an example,
(http://www.aila.org.au/canberragarden/habitat/habitat.htm)
My family began to live in the left residents when I was five years old. One the first day we moved there, I opend the window and the view I saw was: two rows of tall and old willow trees standing along the two sides of road(approximatly, four lanes at most). There was linear wetland near each side of the willow trees. In the night, my mum told children’s story for me to let me fall asleep as soon as possible, while the sound of frogs as one falling,another rising. After 20 years, the landscape has changed to the photo above.It is a shame that I had not known that I would study landscape architecure in the future. That is why I have not taken even one picture of the old landscape of JinBin Road.
Now, I open the the same window, the landscape comes into my eye is: this ** style parterre, big noise from the road and the road without trees and the old wetlands…
I miss the willow trees ,birds and frog songs…http://www.teachertube.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=9352
Comment by Tian Yuan — January 4, 2011 @ 6:07 am
Is it possible to find a photograph of the old JinBin Road? Your story convinces me that, at least, it would have been a much better plan to keep the frogs, the willows and the wetland in the central reservation. This is what Herbert Dreiseitl would have done.
For an unaccountable reason, I have a fondness for frogs and hedgehogs. You could say this is because I share their characteristics (slimey and prickly) but I could argue that I aspire to some of their good qualities: they spend much of their time in reflection and they eat pests.
Comment by Tom Turner — January 4, 2011 @ 8:09 am
I have tried hard to find one old photos, unfortunatly, I have not found yet. But I am sure the old landscape in this place was not as ” beatiful” as it is now. However, it was more ecological, sustainable and natural.
To sum up, it is certain that the landscape here was definitely not designed and planned by a main qualified landscape architect or a group of qualified landscape architects. Therefore, it will become a good example of another bad landscape planning and design and lead the topic back to the newer post: http://www.gardenvisit.com/blog/page/5/ Moreover, landscape planning in various scales have to be clarified clearly. Also, scale may also be appropriate for seperating the different jobs of Urban planners,urban planners,landscape planners ,landscape designers and other title of similar terms.
Comment by Tian Yuan — January 4, 2011 @ 2:11 pm
Not sure that all frog species would appreciate the traffic either. In their paper ‘Effect of Road Traffic on Two Amphibian species of differing Vagility’ Laurie Carr and Lenore Fahrig found that the Leopard frog population density was negatively effected by traffic density within a 1.5km radius while the Green frog population was not effected. What is your local frog species?
The picture you describe sounds quite beautiful. The willow branch in Buddhism has associations with Kwan Yin the bodhisattva of compassion. Perhaps it might be possible to recreate something of it within the median strip of JinBin Road as Tom suggests.
Tom, I am rather fond of hedgehogs, echidnas etc myself. [ http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/cec-the-echidna-bubbles-over/2006/07/25/1153746845587.html ] Not sure I would have wanted to be the driver who ran over his spiny self though!
Comment by Christine — January 5, 2011 @ 3:10 am
Yuan, if you here that a big urbanisation project is about to take place it is well worth going to take a set of photographs in advance, particularly of any features which might survive the onslaught. I spent a day doing this soon after the London Olympic site was announced. The plan was to take regular photographs but they fenced the whole site off. I will however be able to re-take some of the pics when the site opens. Would it e possible to get a photograph of the old JinBin road from the engineer’s department? or are they too busy?
The Aussie hedgehog is a real charmer, but I’m not sure I would want to cuddle it. Perhaps the road could have crash barriers which would protect wildlife. The old steel barriers in the UK are being replaced with concrete barriers, I guess because they are stronger and they stop headlights dazzling other motorists,
Comment by Tom Turner — January 5, 2011 @ 6:05 am
Tom, I hope it may not be too late to go on with this project when I am there later. If you take photos, please share with us and we can discuss them here at least. Re JinBin Road, it is a good idea to have a discussion with engineer’s department. I planned to go back to Tianjin in the end of this month and I will have a try to find this department and speak to them for the photograph.
I will cuddle the cute hedgehog only when it is a doll If it is a real one, I am afraid that I will keep shouting until it feel scared and run away.(!)
Comment by Tian Yuan — January 5, 2011 @ 1:53 pm
The echidna (Aussie hedgehog) is real. I have seen them in their natural habitat while walking at Cradle Mountain. [ http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/index.aspx?base=3297 ] They really are adorable despite the spikes (it is well worth the effort getting a thick towel and gloves to cuddle them) and are naturally quite shy and timid creatures. So I wouldn’t recommend yelling at them Tian. It is a great privilege just to see them.
The problem for echidnas is the fragmentation of their habitat, sometimes by roads, so that when they try to cross the road they are hit by motorists.
Comment by Christine — January 6, 2011 @ 5:16 am
Yes, I will just see them and take photograph with them as I usually do with squirrels.
Comment by Tian Yuan — January 6, 2011 @ 5:54 am
I think that in Greenwich Park more photographs are taken of the squirrels than of anything else. They probably do have hedgehogs but I have never seen them ‘in the prickles’ or even their droppings.
Comment by Tom Turner — January 6, 2011 @ 8:35 am
Tian, the possom is the ‘Aussie squirrel’. There are many types of possoms in Australia, this is just one. [ http://www.jennifermarohasy.com/blog/archives /possums%20blog.jpg ].
Apart from Dame Edna Everage making the saying ‘Hello Possums’ famous in the UK [ http://www.rockymusic.org/showimage/087b3c5e69d98513b6d0a30b8db722e6.php ] the possom has an important role in Australian culture (ie children’s literature) [ http://www.memfox.net/possum-magic.html ] and indigenous culture (ie. possum skin cloaks)[ http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/p/po/possum.gif ].
Tom The Royal Parks is in agreement with you about the doubtful existence of Hedgehogs in Greenwich Park.[ http://www.royalparks.org.uk/docs/100118%20TRP%20consultation%20response%20to%20LBG%20-%20LOCOG%20planning%20application%20Greenwich.pdf ] Do you know if any Hedgehogs have been spotted in Greenwich Ecology Park?
Apparently November 5 – Bonfire night – is a particularly dangerous date for hedgehogs as they love to hibernate in piles of wood and leaves. There is some thought that hedgehogs could be extinct in Wales within 15 years. [ http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2010/11/05/hedgehogs-could-be-extinct-in-15-years-warning-91466-27603894/ ]
The Dutch study ‘The effects of roads and traffic on hedgehog populations’ by Marcel Huijser and Piet Bergers discusses some of the hazards for Dutch hedgehogs.
“The effects of roads and traffic on animal populations are not restricted to traffic mortality alone. Direct habitat loss and factors related to roads and traffic that may affect habitat quality or animal movements can reduce survival probability or population density too. Isolation, traffic noise, visual stimuli (e.g. lights), pollution (e.g. salt, heavy metals, nitrogen-containing compounds, herbicides), management activities in the road-side verges, increased human access, and erosion and sedimentation (especially in uneven terrain) are generally considered to have the greatest effect on habitat quality (e.g. Forman et al., 1997; Forman and Huijser). The ‘effect zone’ of these factors is not restricted to the actual road and road-side verges. Depending on the factor concerned, the affected area may be a few metres up to several kilometres wide.”
Perhaps staging a few concerts here at the Hedgehog Pavilion to raise funds to save the hedgehog might change their fate? [ http://inhabitat.com/hedgehog-concert-pavilion-makes-traffic-cones-beautiful/ ]
Comment by Christine — January 7, 2011 @ 6:15 am
Fred Brown should read the section on hedgehogs in his Greenwich Council’s Biodiversity Action Plan. After all, they pay his wages! I think there must be hedgehogs in Greenwich Park, if only in the deer enclosure and adjoining woodland.
Comment by Tom Turner — January 7, 2011 @ 6:44 pm
Thankyou. For a defintive answer on your speculations about the existence of the hedgehog perhaps gardenvisit could stage a ‘hedgehog race’ and challenge participants to take the first photograph of a hedgehog clearly shown to be living in Greenwich Park?
The prize might be a slice of hedgehog cake [ http://wendyinkk.blogspot.com/2010/08/batik-cake-or-hedgehog-cake.html ]. Why would we have hedgehog slice in Australia? [ http://thepioneerwoman.com/tasty-kitchen/recipes/desserts/chocolate-hedgehog-slice/ ]. I have no idea (though it may also be related to the American chocolate brownie.)!
Comment by Christine — January 8, 2011 @ 5:44 am
Christine, please do not always talk about dessert, here is a greedy kid whoes has the worst teeth among all the landscape architects because she has eaten a lot of chocolats trifle,candy…
Comment by Tian Yuan — January 8, 2011 @ 6:55 am
Yuan – just for you! [ http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/food/strangest-summer-snack-the-watermelon-hedgehog-yes-hedgehog-1824868 ]
Comment by Christine — January 10, 2011 @ 6:03 am